should i buy old starcraft aluminum for 1st ski boat

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 00:20:23 -0500, "johnagner" <agner1.DeleteThis@aaahawk.com>
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

 >I'm looking to buy my first boat, and i'm on a limited budget. a friend
 >suggested i buy one with an outboard.

The only good thing about an old outboard is that if it's stuffed it's
easy to throw away. They are actually more higly tuned and stressed
than most inboards. 2 strokes in particular are out of favour and
parts could be a bitch.

You need to get the motor checked out jusy like any other mach
purchase. IKn fact if the car breaks down, you walk home....

 >i'd use it in a new jersey bay, for
 >some pleasure boating and perhaps a little waterskiing. I've seen good
 >prices

Yerr.........welll?

 >on old aluminum vhull starcraft boats from the 60s and 70s. would
 >such a boat be a good buy,

 >since aluminum doesn't deteriorate like
 >fiberglass,

crap. Corrosion. Weld cracking under flex. I make a generalisation in
big way. Fglass deteriorates, but sort of "spreads it" Points IMO kill
boats. Look at old wood boats. They get by because the problems are
small and spread, and people are willing to fiorgive and fix.

I have a kayak that is now 44 years old. The fibreglass is fine,
although the gelcoat is crazed. It's the joins and seams that are
stuffed. Many boat hulls have no seams. The kayak does because they
had to join two halves. Al does.

Are the star craft riveted or welded? Back then welding alum was
hmmmm...

If riveted, forget it. Read leaks, almost like a solid wood boat. If
welded and that old, they may well have been experimenting.

Where are you? We had a Star Boats in Western Australia who were
pioneers in alum building, and I remember a lecture by their chief
welder that impressed me "back in the 70s". But then, it was still new
stuff. We were all saying "alum.....He was a GURU.

 >and since these boats seem to go pretty fast with a 90-110 hp
 >outboard.

and may leak like a sieve.


 >please email replies to johnagner.DeleteThis@hotmail.com

Nup!
**************************************************** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: should i buy old starcraft aluminum for 1st ski boat 

I second what Nick said,
I own 2 boats, an aluminium side console fishing boat and a fibreglass
speedboat. Whoever tells you fibreglass is no good is offering you useless
unfounded advice. They both have their pros and cons. Weigh both sides for
yourself. Speak to a dealer who sells/specializes in both. From experience,
maintenance and durability standpoints, I'll never buy aluminium again.
Heres why. If you plan on never hitting anything while underway then
metal is a safe bet (these same people also bet they will never be involved
in a car accident!). Otherwise, you'll end up like I did, with a very large
dent in the hull. Yes, It happens to even the best of us. Hitting a tree
stump at 25mph can cause severe damage to aluminium that is not easily
repaired, whereas fibreglass can usually be spot repaired in this type of
circumstance (if there is even any damage more then a scratch for that
matter). Poor welds can deteriorate and become weak, leading in turn to
excessive flex and weakened hull integrity. In severe cases, seams can come
apart from vibration, riveted hulls are worse. Inevitably, this in turn
leads to leaks. Another common issue is galvanic corrosion. It tends to be
greater on aluminium boats then fibreglass due to the metal to water to
metal contact. Some rattle and are irrefutably nosier then fibreglass
because of the nature of metals conductivity to noise, save maybe the more
expensive fishing rigs (which can be rather quiet), but that's not what you
are looking for. Aluminium is not easy to keep shiny, fibreglass is not any
easier.
In some respects being lighter then fibreglass is a benefit. They need
less power to achieve the same performance as a comparably sized glass hull
so in turn will probably save $ on fuel (smaller motor). But this can also
be a bit of an annoyance being lighter. If you plan on operating in anything
more then 1-2 foot seas you'll see what I mean.
Fibreglass is heavier so the boat may not toss around in heavier seas,
but, more weight means more motor which equals more $ all around. Osmosis
can be an issue. Gelcoats fade and scratch and require continual upkeep
(yearly) to maintain that glossy shine.
As for outboard vs. I/O? Personally as one who has owned and worked on
both, The ease of outboard maintenance compared to I/O is unparalleled. To
rebuild my powerhead I can have it removed and ready for the machine shop in
1 hour, I challenge even the best marine mechanic to match that with an I/O.
It is quite an ordeal, and not something you can do in your own garage.
General up keep and maintenance is easier to do on an outboard in my
opinion, but you need to know what you are doing. I/O's are basically
automotive engines converted for marine use which in itself has pros and
cons. Winterizing is easier on an outboard and pound for pound delivers more
torque and horsepower the average I/O when hp to weight ratio is considered.
As mentioned earlier, they have their downside too though. They are
nosier and can be finicky. They're confusing and messy to some when mixing
oil with gas and if you forget the oil.....guess what, bye bye motor. Oil
injection is not any safer, I have heard of and seen countless cases where
the injection pump failed and the engine was oil starved causing severe
cylinder scoring. These are just a few of the tidbits of info to help you
get started in making your decision.
If you are new to boating, and considering buying an old boat, before
you lay your hard earned $ for a downpayment- Do yourself a favour....find a
local marine mechanic, pay him to do a once over on your perspective
purchase. There are countless hidden areas not discussed here that can turn
into financial disasters. Worse still, is finding out one fine evening when
out with the family out on the water and miles from shore. The sun sets....
the motor goes quiet.... and you discover then and there, you have a
problem. Hope this helps.

regards
Bryan
 >> Stay informed about: should i buy old starcraft aluminum for 1st ski boat 

Motors seem to be the most important thing when you get involved in
boats.It really sucks when they quit on the water,a big body of water
or a large tangle of rivers and backwaters seem amazingly similar to a
large empty desert when it happens.Life is too short to fork around
with old motors,it's better to just kick the dog and beat the wife to
get that part over with and then buy a new or slightly used one that
won't give you any trouble.Motor,I mean,not wife or dog.
Next in importance, to my mind, is a trailor.If you are using
salt water,Aluminum is best,galvanized works and a painted one
will last about 2 days if you're careful.
Hulls seem to be the easiest thing to acquire.Forget wood unless
you like puttering around a lot or have a covered place to store one
and it's in good shape to begin with and you like puttering around a
lot anyway.I don't know much about metal boats.Fiberglass itself will
last till the cows come home but the encapsulated wood (like in the
floor(deck) or especially the transom) has a very good chance of
having gone to Hell a long time ago with no intensions of returning.
All in all it's very easy to blow a wad of money on a boat that
might very easily leave you broke, stranded, pissed off,in dire
straights, divorced or at the very least with a big pile of useless
crap in the driveway.
 >> Stay informed about: should i buy old starcraft aluminum for 1st ski boat 

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:57:43 +0800, Old Nick wrote:

 > On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 00:20:23 -0500, "johnagner" <agner1.DeleteThis@aaahawk.com> vaguely
 > proposed a theory
 > ......and in reply I say!:
 > remove ns from my header address to reply via email
 >
  >>I'm looking to buy my first boat, and i'm on a limited budget. a friend
  >>suggested i buy one with an outboard.
 >

....and I disagree with most of what Nick said.

Here on the West Coast, where there's lots of things to hit, welded-aluminum
boats are de rigeur for commercial boats (fishing, commuter, etc.). They just
last and last (but they aren't cheap, don't look great, and sound wierd). As for
rivited aluminum: half the backyards in BC have a rivited-aluminum skiff tucked
away somewhere. The one I have is 1975, and it's still leakproof despite being
thrown around, dragged over rocks and gravel, etc.

Old outboards seem to never die. I've had several over 20 years old (my current
one is a 1989 Johnson) and they seem to just keep running (<koff!><koff!> they
DO smoke a lot!). Not much to go wrong with an old 2-stroke...

So yeah, an aluminum boat with an old outboard is a great way to get into
boating. Just make sure you have an alternate way home (kicker motor, electric,
oars...) and don't go too far until you're sure the boat is reliable.

And DO have the boat and especially the motor checked out by an "expert" before
you buy.

Lloyd Sumpter
"The Tin Boat" Mirrocraft 12<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: should i buy old starcraft aluminum for 1st ski boat 

Make sure it didn't come from salt water area, I had one a 22 foot cabin
Starcraft and the aluminum oxidized or something and you ended up with a binch
of white powder, but for the time I had it , it was very sea worthy, mind you
awful noisey, and the small 4 cylinder inboard was very tired.

Tony Thomas wrote:

 > Those boats were well made but make sure you check the following.
 > 1. All welds are good with no cracks. All rivits are solid and tight.
 > Also make sure the boat runs straight and does not flex. Welds under the
 > floor could be broken which would cause the boat to flex and run out of
 > control.
 > 2. All the wiring has been redone or is still in good shape w/ no corrosion.
 > Otherwise you will spend all your time fixing wiring problems on the boat.
 > 3. I assume it will have a newer motor on it. I would not recommend a real
 > old motor for a first timer as finding someone to work on it may be a
 > problem and parts are even more of a problem.
 > 4. Make sure the trailer is in good shape and not rusted to pieces (paint
 > can cover a lot).
 > 5. Don't think you will fix things on the boat like windshields and stuff.
 > Parts for the boat will not exist and you will never be able to get a
 > windshield to match or any other special parts.
 >
 > Just remember, there is a reason for the price being so low.
 >
 > --
 > Tony
<font color=purple> > My boats and autos - <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://t.thomas.home.mchsi.com</font" target="_blank">http://t.thomas.home.mchsi.com</font</a>>
 >
 > "johnagner" <agner1.RemoveThis@aaahawk.com> wrote in message
 > news:1067g9nm63shsc4@corp.supernews.com...
  > > I'm looking to buy my first boat, and i'm on a limited budget. a friend
  > > suggested i buy one with an outboard. i'd use it in a new jersey bay, for
  > > some pleasure boating and perhaps a little waterskiing. I've seen good
  > > prices on old aluminum vhull starcraft boats from the 60s and 70s. would
  > > such a boat be a good buy, since aluminum doesn't deteriorate like
  > > fiberglass, and since these boats seem to go pretty fast with a 90-110 hp
  > > outboard. please email replies to johnagner.RemoveThis@hotmail.com
  > >
  > ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: should i buy old starcraft aluminum for 1st ski boat 

Hi Lloyd,
From the sounds of it you have quite a substantial amount of faith in
the strength of aluminium hulls. To compare aluminium commercial fishers
with "backyard skiffs" is somewhat akin to comparing apples and hammers
though wouldn't you agree?
Heres a little challenge to affirm or refute your faith in those riveted
hulls you can try if you're ever bored and have a little jalopy you don't
care much about. Word to the wise though, do not try this far from shore.
Take a large piece of firewood, spray paint it neon orange for
visibility and float it in the water. Back track a ways and ram it full
speed, in similar fashion an unsuspecting boater might accidentally hit a
similar piece of driftwood while underway. Try to ensure you reach it doing
cruise speeds (20-30 mph).
Until you actually see what this type of an impact does to a "backyard
skiff," holding them to such false high esteem would lead one to believe
they are safer then they really are. I have proof to give me reason to
believe otherwise. Okay okay I know it doesn't happen every day, but it does
happen, it happened to me so it could just as easily happen to anyone.
Perhaps aluminium hulls don't mind being "dragged over rocks and gravel"
when being beached, but then again neither does my canoe. It, however, is a
far cry from the security I feel when bumping something unexpectedly in my
fibreglass hull (to a point). I still say glass is the way.

regards
Bryan
 >> Stay informed about: should i buy old starcraft aluminum for 1st ski boat 

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 08:07:32 -0800, "Lloyd Sumpter"
<lsumpter.RemoveThis@dccnet.com> vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email


 >Here on the West Coast, where there's lots of things to hit, welded-aluminum
 >boats are de rigeur for commercial boats (fishing, commuter, etc.). They just
 >last and last (but they aren't cheap, don't look great, and sound wierd).

But were they built 30-40 years ago?

 >As for
 >rivited aluminum: half the backyards in BC have a rivited-aluminum skiff tucked
 >away somewhere. The one I have is 1975, and it's still leakproof despite being
 >thrown around, dragged over rocks and gravel, etc.

Well I have a riveted aluminium ruinabout that I got "for a good
price". I don't know how old it is. It's a bloody mess. A real
"project". It's way overbuilt in the sheeting, and too heavy. But
every rivet leaks. I learned to hate my wife for a while, because I
held the dolly while she belted the rivets, trying to seel them. It
only partially worked. It really needs either welding or completely
re-riveting.

 >So yeah, an aluminum boat with an old outboard is a great way to get into
 >boating. Just make sure you have an alternate way home (kicker motor, electric,
 >oars...) and don't go too far until you're sure the boat is reliable.
 >
 >And DO have the boat and especially the motor checked out by an "expert" before
 >you buy.

But "at the right price" this can become uneconomical IMO, unless you
know a mate who is (a) really up with it (b) brave enough to recommend
you a boat!
**************************************************** sorry

..........no I'm not!
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Does Bill Gates dream of electronic sheep?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: should i buy old starcraft aluminum for 1st ski boat 

"johnagner" <agner1 RemoveThis @aaahawk.com> wrote in message
news:1067g9nm63shsc4@corp.supernews.com...
 > I'm looking to buy my first boat, and i'm on a limited budget. a friend
 > suggested i buy one with an outboard. i'd use it in a new jersey bay, for
 > some pleasure boating and perhaps a little waterskiing. I've seen good
 > prices on old aluminum vhull starcraft boats from the 60s and 70s. would
 > such a boat be a good buy, since aluminum doesn't deteriorate like
 > fiberglass, and since these boats seem to go pretty fast with a 90-110 hp
 > outboard. please email replies to johnagner RemoveThis @hotmail.com
 >
 >
John,

I was in the same place as you and decided to with the classic aluminum
boat. Light aluminum boats really scoot with a minimum of power and they are
much easier to horse around on land. I have had fiberglass hulls and I will
never go back!
I have looked at several boats before I settled on Crestliner. The
Starcraft hulls I looked at were mostly OK, but I favored the Crestliner
lines; the years I looked at they had the shape of classic wooden boats.

If you do get a riveted hull, expect to learn to replace leaky rivets on a
old riveted aluminum hull. It's not hard and will go a long ways towards
eliminating a source of annoyances. (a puddle in the bottom, of the hull)
Please note that you can't really re-set a rivet once its driven.

Welded hulls started about mid-60's and the older Crestliners seem to be
holding up pretty well. Some other brands did not do as well.

You may be able to just buy a boat and start boating. It really depends on
your temperament, pocket book and what you want out of a boat. I believe
that you should buy as cheaply as possible (within reason) on your first
boat. After you have run it for a while you will learn what it is that you
truly want from a boat. If at all possible, go boating with a friend before
you buy your first boat. This will help you learn the basics of what you do
and don't like about boats before you plop down the long green. Failing
that, many on the group recommend power-squadron training. I can't say how
it would work out but many recommend it.

No matter what sort of old boat you buy, expect problems with the wiring,
control cables, engine, batteries, and trailer. More than likely, you will
find that you can't live with some of the problems that the last owner did.
You will want to clear them up to make your boat work the way you think it
should. The act of boating should be pleasurable - sitting out in the middle
of a lake with a dead engine does very little to enhance the boating
experience. What you will or won't be able to deal with depends on how handy
and will equipped you are. Using a leaky rivet as an example; A replacement
rivet costs a few cents and 10 minutes if you cure it yourself. You may pay
a great deal more if you have a marine shop fix it.

Keep in mind that boating is not quite like driving - a relatively minor
problem may become life-threatening under the wrong circumstances. There is
a good reason they invented the phrase ship-shape!

To see what some other classic aluminum boaters are doing, see:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.retrocrestliner.com/viewer_photos%20index.htm" target="_blank">http://www.retrocrestliner.com/viewer_photos%20index.htm</a>

My boat is under page 16, to save navigation hassels, see pages:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.retrocrestliner.com/viewer_photos_page%2016,%20Mark%20Browne%20a.htm" target="_blank">http://www.retrocrestliner.com/viewer_photos_page%2016,%20Mark%20Browne%20a.htm</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.retrocrestliner.com/viewer_photos_page%2016,%20Mark%20Brownea1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.retrocrestliner.com/viewer_photos_page%2016,%20Mark%20Brownea1.htm</a>
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.retrocrestliner.com/viewer_photos_page%2016browne.htm" target="_blank">http://www.retrocrestliner.com/viewer_photos_page%2016browne.htm</a>

I had a big block of overseas travel for work last year and completely shot
any chance of finishing my boat; I intend to splash my hull this year.

Best of luck,

Mark Browne<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: should i buy old starcraft aluminum for 1st ski boat 

My first boat at my latest cottage was a 1962 Starcraft, aluminum riveted.

It'll do you fine... cause you won't have it for all that long. That's the
thing about starter boats... they get you on the water and used to how
things work. Then, 2-footitus sets in, and you want something bigger, faster
and sexier looking.

So who cares if it leaks! That's what bilge pumps are for. Who cares if it's
noisy... you're on the water! Who cares if the paints peeling... soon enough
you'll be selling it to another newbie and probably buying a glass boat.

By the way, I'm glad my first boat on this lake was aluminum... and not very
expensive, cause I got a little directionally challenged one night on the
way back to the cottage, an island passed me on the wrong side of the
boat... then I smacked a nice big rock square on with the bow. It put a
shark's bite in the bow, and I bent the aluminum windshield frame with my
forehead. The battery came loose and ended up under the bow. It took me 15
minutes to locate it and reconnect it in the dark... fired up and drove
home. Since the "bite" was above the water line, I never bothered to fix
it... just looked like a dork driving it around for the rest of the summer.
Then sold it to my marina guy for spare parts and bought a nice fglass boat.

Mind you... if I had been driving a glass boat that night... I probably
would have sunk and not had a boat for the rest of the year.

2-stroke o/b's are really simple engines... and if you are buying a boat
with the same vintage engine, then there should be lots of retired guys
around that know that engine inside out... who have nothing to do, and will
be happy to see you and your motor. In the end, you will spend more time
talking to them than they will spend fixing it... but your motor will work
and you will have made a friend.

Happy boating.



"johnagner" <agner1 RemoveThis @aaahawk.com> wrote in message
news:1067g9nm63shsc4@corp.supernews.com...
 > I'm looking to buy my first boat, and i'm on a limited budget. a friend
 > suggested i buy one with an outboard. i'd use it in a new jersey bay, for
 > some pleasure boating and perhaps a little waterskiing. I've seen good
 > prices on old aluminum vhull starcraft boats from the 60s and 70s. would
 > such a boat be a good buy, since aluminum doesn't deteriorate like
 > fiberglass, and since these boats seem to go pretty fast with a 90-110 hp
 > outboard. please email replies to johnagner RemoveThis @hotmail.com
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: should i buy old starcraft aluminum for 1st ski boat