Advice to new paddlers about kit

Ewan Scott wrote:

> The kit is not restrictive

All things are relative. Paddling in a wetsuit and cag and BA is more
restrictive than paddling in just a BA. It might not be /unduly/
restrictive, all things considered, but it is nonetheless more
restrictive. That is one of the reasons I much prefer to paddle in
fleece tights and a Paramo shirt than in a wetsuit and cag *if* it's
calm enough that I won't get covered in very cold water.

> it is not unnecessary

Sort of depends on definitions. "Not unnecessary" could reasonable be
argued to be the same as "necessary", and on the majority of
pleasureable paddling occasions I'm wearing the aforementioned fleece
tights and Paramo shirt and BA, and when I'm doing that the cag and
wettie clearly aren't "necessary", even if I've got them along in the
boat Just In Case.

> and it need not be expensive.

But it will be more expensive than not having them.

> Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the
> enjoyment of the activity.

But there are numerous possibilities for paddling where you don't get
appreciably wet, in which case staying drier is a moot point. On a
typical sea paddle on a nice day (which I much prefer to 'orrible days)
I can get straight out of my boat, load it on the car and drive away
with no need to dry or change any clothes at all. Because my fleece
tights and shirt dry out incredibly quickly I'm usually considerably
drier than folk that wear wetsuits for the same paddle, because they
don't dry out and you sweat a lot inside them. And if you stay dry then
you'll probably be warm, especially if you're working hard, in which
case being warmer is a moot point. If you get hot inside a cag then
even a breathable one won't vent the sweat as fast as you make it, so
you end up less comfortable by wearing it, not more, if it isn't keeping
off cold water in appreciable quantities.

In the sea boat my cag travels on the deck by default, not on me. And
it does that because if the conditions are benign and don't demand it
then it's more comfortable not to wear it. Beginners will typically
begin in benign conditions...

Of course, that's for sea paddling, which is often effectively flat
water paddling, at least for beginners. I wear completely different kit
in the surf or my occasional forays into rock-bashing, but "a beginner"
doesn't imply anything about where, just a lack of experience. So my
advice returns to where it began: borrow stuff appropriate for the
particular context until you know what's right. Most of the advice has
been pretty much specific to white water, but that isn't the only game
in town. My first paddling was mostly inna flatwater touring stylee as
a kid. I very much doubt I'd have been any better off in a wet suit and
cag: I wasn't even using a spray deck...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch.DeleteThis@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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"Peter Clinch" <p.j.clinch.TakeThisOut@dundee.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:dg6s3l$8r0$1@dux.dundee.ac.uk...
> Ewan Scott wrote:
>
> > The kit is not restrictive
>
> All things are relative. Paddling in a wetsuit and cag and BA is more
> restrictive than paddling in just a BA. It might not be /unduly/
> restrictive, all things considered, but it is nonetheless more
> restrictive. That is one of the reasons I much prefer to paddle in
> fleece tights and a Paramo shirt than in a wetsuit and cag *if* it's
> calm enough that I won't get covered in very cold water.

That is of course true. Spending most of my paddling time teaching I tend to
get A/ wet, and B/ spend more time than I should do observing rather than
paddling. In the past four years I think we have paddled in tee shirts and
shorts twice.


> > it is not unnecessary
>
> Sort of depends on definitions. "Not unnecessary" could reasonable be
> argued to be the same as "necessary", and on the majority of
> pleasureable paddling occasions I'm wearing the aforementioned fleece
> tights and Paramo shirt and BA, and when I'm doing that the cag and
> wettie clearly aren't "necessary", even if I've got them along in the
> boat Just In Case.

Unecessary implies not needed at all. I'd argue that isn't the case, but
then I'm not doing placid water nowadays.


> > and it need not be expensive.
>
> But it will be more expensive than not having them.

Expense is relative. Warmer drier, happier paddlers for the cost of a £15
wind cag is cheap if it overcomes initial barriers. Remember, for most kids
starting out paddling the biggest fear is getting cold, and cold water. The
psychological effect of having some protection pays fantastic dividends.

> > Can't see how keeping drier and warmer detracts from the
> > enjoyment of the activity.
>
> But there are numerous possibilities for paddling where you don't get
> appreciably wet, in which case staying drier is a moot point. On a
> typical sea paddle on a nice day (which I much prefer to 'orrible days)
> I can get straight out of my boat, load it on the car and drive away
> with no need to dry or change any clothes at all. Because my fleece
> tights and shirt dry out incredibly quickly I'm usually considerably
> drier than folk that wear wetsuits for the same paddle, because they
> don't dry out and you sweat a lot inside them. And if you stay dry then
> you'll probably be warm, especially if you're working hard, in which
> case being warmer is a moot point. If you get hot inside a cag then
> even a breathable one won't vent the sweat as fast as you make it, so
> you end up less comfortable by wearing it, not more, if it isn't keeping
> off cold water in appreciable quantities.

If we are talking beginners, I can't think of a single time we have been out
and they haven't got wet, either by splashing each other, accidental capsize
or deliberate capsize. If we are on the water for two hours and one of our
beginners is inappropriately dresed and falls in within the first five
minutes (as sometimes happens with one or two of them) then the following
hour and 55 minutes may be less than pleasant.

> In the sea boat my cag travels on the deck by default, not on me. And
> it does that because if the conditions are benign and don't demand it
> then it's more comfortable not to wear it. Beginners will typically
> begin in benign conditions...

Indeed, but ithe more comfortable we can make them the more likely they are
to get into the sport.

> Of course, that's for sea paddling, which is often effectively flat
> water paddling, at least for beginners. I wear completely different kit
> in the surf or my occasional forays into rock-bashing, but "a beginner"
> doesn't imply anything about where, just a lack of experience. So my
> advice returns to where it began: borrow stuff appropriate for the
> particular context until you know what's right. Most of the advice has
> been pretty much specific to white water, but that isn't the only game
> in town. My first paddling was mostly inna flatwater touring stylee as
> a kid. I very much doubt I'd have been any better off in a wet suit and
> cag: I wasn't even using a spray deck...

I started in tee shirts and shorts, but soon discovered that a thermal and
cag, of any sort were a better bet. Still shorts on the bottom half. But now
when I'm likely to end up standing in the water for extended periods (always
a possibility) I prefer my wet suit..

Ewan Scott


>
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"Keith Meredith" <merry050.TakeThisOut@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dfneum$lc3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Hi
>
> What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on?
>
> Keith
>

Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit
(apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and
please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc.

Best wishes

Keith
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"Keith Meredith" <merry050.RemoveThis@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dg79iq$dba$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "Keith Meredith" <merry050.RemoveThis@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:dfneum$lc3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> > Hi
> >
> > What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on?
> >
> > Keith
> >
>
> Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit
> (apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and
> please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc.
>
Does a bottle of water count? Seriously, having water is more important to
me than having a hot drink ( I always have one with me but I frequently
don't touch it till we are back at the car.

Otherwise airbags in all the boats. It really gets on my tits when we are
teaching kids and we have lots of rescues to do, and they have to do them
too, and the boats don't have airbags- almost invariably kids tend to swamp
the boats and it is a sod to empty them. At one point I had two instructors
and seven kids, and I had two kids in the water at the same time and another
two looking like going over. They had swamped the boats, and I was taking
way longer than I should have to empty them. In the meantime the kids were
grabbing at my boat and there was a strong possibility that they were going
to put me over as well. Fortunately another coach arrived on scene and
emptied the other boat. So airbags all round.

Flat water coaching, whitewater.

Ewan Scott
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In message <dg79iq$dba$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
"Keith Meredith" <merry050.DeleteThis@btinternet.com> wrote:

>
> "Keith Meredith" <merry050.DeleteThis@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:dfneum$lc3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> > Hi
> >
> > What kit would you advise a new paddler to spend money on?
> >
> > Keith
> >
>
> Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit
> (apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and
> please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc.

Waterproof digital camera. Discipline - whatever I'm doing at the time.

>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>

--
Alan Adams
alan.adams.DeleteThis@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/
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Peter Clinch wrote:
> mcgrueralarms DeleteThis @nf.aibn.com wrote:
> > For chucking real money I would spend all the extra or available cash (
> > after food and rent ) on a BA and a paddle. If you love the sport a
> > high quality BA and Paddle willl make a huge difference.
>
> But what paddle? My sea paddle would set you back about £200 if you
> went and bought one yourself. I like it a lot for sea touring, but it's
> too long for whitewater use and the blades aren't up to the abuse of
> bouncing off rocks. A polo player would probably have little use for
> variable feather, and so on. A good paddle is indeed worth spending on,
> but only when you know what "good" is /for your own situation/.

You are quite right . I made an assumption that a sea paddler is a
different bird than a white water paddler. I play in both but i believe
white water paddling , sea kayaking, open canoeing , single skull
rowing are all different sports. I play at all of them but the BA is
often the only peice of gear that moves from one to the other.
Armed with that information, ( will I paddle on the ocean, do I preffer
battering through white water or would I like just paddling on inland
water ways for short distances.
Each had a different set of tools.
Assured of where I want to paddle I can then go shopping for
appropriate gear.
I think a paddle is a pivotal piece of gear.
>
> And it's also the case that a good paddle isn't /necessarily/ a lot of
> money. A friend paddles his home made baidarka with a home made
> traditional wooden paddle, basically a long stick with flattened ends.
> Cost nothing but time, works very well, and it's easier to roll with
> than my carbon fibre confection.

I made a Greenland paddle too. I like my Carbon Fiber confection.
I do agree about cost though . I bought a lovely used paddle some years
back, I can't get it back off my wife. It is the best paddle I have
ever used. This year I spent a lot of money on a bent shaft paddle (
the Scottish one ) It is my spare, Very disapointing.

I consider WW and Sea kayaking different sports. The only reason I ww
kayak is to speed up my bracing and rescue skills. Well that and
showing off seal launches and the likes. It is seasonal here while the
sea is always open some where.
Alex


>
> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net p.j.clinch DeleteThis @dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 >> Stay informed about: Advice to new paddlers about kit 

How Cold id cold?
Cold is what the Clyde is now . I swam in the Clyde and Gareloch as a
kid. At 10 years old that water was bitter.

Less than 25 Meters from a bank with the ability to get out is not bad.

Actually it does not even leave an argument, if you are reliably in
flat water, that is 20 + degrees and have a comfortable air temperature
you don't need any of this stuff. If you have a wind chill of - 20 as
posted earlier or any number of other safety issues a wet suit ( if
only a shorty ) is a good idea..
Alex
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Keith Meredith wrote:

> Fantastic - a thread more than 5 posts long - now, what's the bit of kit
> (apart from boat and paddle!) that you wouldn't set out without... and
> please state discipline - sea, surf, whitewater, touring, etc.

We had a gear evening earlier in the year, where the club training
officer was going through useful things to take on a (sea kayak) trip.
She asked folk to bring along a favourite bit of kit, and say why it was
a fave.

The training officer's own stated fave was a roll of plastic bags,
reinforcing that in a weekend of sea paddling you typically spend more
time camping, preparing food, packing and unpacking than you do paddling.

Mine was a pair of wicking underpants, as they dry out faster than they
get wet, at least if you're not wearing a wet suit. Very big comfort
difference, and no need to change them when you get out.

A new chap, who'd been out and bought /everything/ (including a P&H
quest, before he'd even been kayaking), took a VHF radio that had an
interlock to his GPS. Compare and contrast with dry pants and a roll of
ziplock baggies!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch RemoveThis @dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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Allan Bennett wrote:

> Therein lies the problem with all the recommendations for
> kit for a beginner! None of you have stated that you are
> recommending stuff for specialist and possibly extreme
> forms of canoeing - to a beginner!. Most of the kit you
> advocate is unnecessary and expensive. It is also
> restrictive and limits the enjoyment of paddling, IMO.

I am a beginner, doing my two star training, before getting in the boat we
must put on the kit the coaches lay out, BA, Cag and Helmet. They also
recommend the long john wetsuit. There were six coaches there and guess what
they were wearing ?
I am a beginner, but I am happy to go along with the coaches
recommendations.
I done three eskimo recues last night and felt nice and warm in my wetsuit,
one of the girls wearing a pair of shorts was complaining about the cold on
her first tip over. Not too specialist or extreme, I felt good enough to get
out of the boat and swim it to shore at the end of the session.
--
Muzz
send mail to muzzmackay@'7thletterofthealphabet'mail.com
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Muzz wrote:

> I am a beginner, doing my two star training

Define "beginner"... it would be fair to take it to mean "has never
been in a boat before", or just two or three times. Rather lower than
prospective 2* in terms of experience.

> before getting in the boat we
> must put on the kit the coaches lay out, BA, Cag and Helmet. They also
> recommend the long john wetsuit. There were six coaches there and guess what
> they were wearing ?

But what sort of paddling and in what conditions? We never put helmets
on people for pool sessions and typical touring paddling, they're not
really any use and just make it hard to hear what's going on while
reducing comfort (and consequently enjoyment). In white water and surf
it's a very different matter, you'd probably be daft not to, but that's
not the only way to go paddling.
BA I always wear, but lots of people in my club just borrow one form the
club, so they don't need one themselves. Same for a wetsuit and cag,
though most people wear them because they assume they're better off in
them because they're there... and when we're out on the water I'm far
more comfy in fleece tights and shirt than they are in their "proper
paddling kit" of wet suit and cag.

But in any event, your coaches have put all this stuff out, why do you
need to go and buy it yourself right away? Surely you'd be better
getting experience before you decide what to spend your funds on so you
can make an informed choice on what *you* need rather than what I think
you might?

> I am a beginner, but I am happy to go along with the coaches
> recommendations.

Though there's more to a coach's recommendations than what is what
you'll reasonably get away with. If they have access to a load of
safety kit to loan out (check!) and they live in an increasingly
litigious society (check!) that tends to be preoccupied with Having All
The Right Stuff (check!) then it's hardly surprising they get people to
wear it. And we're back to particular discipline of paddling. AB is a
coach, but flat water marathon and sprint IIRC, which has no need for
helmets or wetsuits and little use for cags beyond windbreakers.

I recently did cycle leader training. We were told we should always
wear cycle helmets to be "good role models". I pointed out there is no
good evidence that cycle helmets make any useful difference to serious
injuries on the roads (don't believe that? look at
www.cyclehelmets.org), and I prefer to be a good role model by showing
you can ride a bike without recourse to unnecessary and ultimately
unhelpful accessories that put many people off what is often seen as far
more dangerous than it really is, so I'll be wearing my cotton cycling
cap when I'm out teaching tonight. Cycling isn't the only area that
suffers from a preoccupation with supposing safety gear aimed at far
different situations must be a benefit anywhere else it can be deployed.

> I done three eskimo recues last night and felt nice and warm in my wetsuit,
> one of the girls wearing a pair of shorts was complaining about the cold on
> her first tip over. Not too specialist or extreme

An eskimo rescue is specialist if you take a general view of paddling
the full spectrum of canoes and kayaks. There are plenty of boats where
you won't do one because the boats don't run with decks and you can't
brace yourself in. For such craft an eskimo rescue is esoteric and
overspecialised, and thus rather an extreme thing to learn.
In many boats if you go in then you'll swim. As long as you can swim
then there's not much issue with doing extra practice, and you're better
getting on with how not to swim...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch.TakeThisOut@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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mcgrueralarms.DeleteThis@nf.aibn.com wrote:

> I think a paddle is a pivotal piece of gear.

Indeed it is, but to be honest you can come a long way off "top of the
range" and still have a very capable bit of kit that will do everything
you ever need.

> I made a Greenland paddle too. I like my Carbon Fiber confection.

And I like mine, but it doesn't have it 100% its own way despite being
an order of magnitude more expensive. For example, the Greenland paddle
is much better for inside leaned turns, because you can use it as a long
float.

> ever used. This year I spent a lot of money on a bent shaft paddle (
> the Scottish one ) It is my spare, Very disapointing.

I have a mod crank Lendal. I can take or leave the cranks and I
wouldn't bother with them if I had to replace the current shaft, but
friends I know with a lot of experience are very keen on them and find
they make a tangibly useful difference to wrist fatigue over a long day.
Personally I find that changing the feather and/or blades makes more
difference (I have Paddloks so can change the blades easily, I started
off with polypro Nordkapps and Archipelagos, found I preferred narrower,
got the Archs in carbon). Some people I know find cranks make their
wrist problems worse, so I would say try before you buy if at all
possible and also that you really need ones made for your own
thumb-thumb distance. If you buy a "standard" shaft off the shelf it's
entirely possible the cranks will be at the wrong distance apart, which
makes it worse than pointless.

I've used carbon Nimbus in a couple of the narrow flavours and they were
fine, but not obviously better or worse than my own Lendals.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch.DeleteThis@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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>
> > I done three eskimo recues last night and felt nice and warm in my
wetsuit,
> > one of the girls wearing a pair of shorts was complaining about the cold
on
> > her first tip over. Not too specialist or extreme
>
> An eskimo rescue is specialist if you take a general view of paddling
> the full spectrum of canoes and kayaks. There are plenty of boats where
> you won't do one because the boats don't run with decks and you can't
> brace yourself in. For such craft an eskimo rescue is esoteric and
> overspecialised, and thus rather an extreme thing to learn.
> In many boats if you go in then you'll swim. As long as you can swim
> then there's not much issue with doing extra practice, and you're better
> getting on with how not to swim...
>
Sounds like we are talking CCK 2 star here, and eskimo is , as I am sure you
know, part of the syllabus. We actually start teaching it from day one in
the pool as it helps with hip flicks. Amazing to see kids just starting out,
capsize, reach out and grab the nearest boat and flip themselves back up...

If CCK then, by definition, an eskimo rescue is always an option. HST, you'd
probably be very lucky to use it "textbook" fashion in anger, I suspect.

Ewan Scott
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Ewan Scott wrote:

> Sounds like we are talking CCK 2 star here, and eskimo is , as I am sure you
> know, part of the syllabus.

I didn't, as it happens. I have a 3* but only did that as a formality
for a start towards the teaching ladder as TSKC is currently getting
swamped with new members depsite us trying to beat them off with a
shitty stick and we need more people who can do basic teaching. Beyond
that I'm very happy to learn skills but have very limited interest in
owning a piece of paper that tells me what I'm capable of doing.

> We actually start teaching it from day one in
> the pool as it helps with hip flicks.

So do we at TSKC, but the other paddling club I'm in, East of Scotland
Open Canoe, doesn't have much use for hip flicks... If you want to
stick to kayaks, I doubt a sprint K2 crew would find much use for them.
And so on.

> If CCK then, by definition, an eskimo rescue is always an option. HST, you'd
> probably be very lucky to use it "textbook" fashion in anger, I suspect.

Indeed. The chances of holding your breath long enough for someone to
get lined up on you in the sort of conditions that will knock you in are
pretty limited, I'd say. They certainly are useful as a quick get-out
having buggered up a controlled practice roll that doesn't then require
you to empty the boat and get back in it, and controlled roll practice
beyond the pool we always have a boat lined up for one.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch.TakeThisOut@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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