Alpha vs. Bravo

Sorry.. I guess I should have added that 95% of all use is on a landlocked
river..
Will probably launch from Westerly, R.I or off the cape.... but not often..

-j

"Harry Krause" <piedtypecase.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1u38b$1njpcv$5@ID-21096.news.uni-berlin.de...
 > Jay wrote:
 >
  > > Folks,
  > >
  > > Looking for some feelings on the comparative difference. I'm looking at
a
  > > 21 ft. sundeck model, with a 5.0, 260 horse. The local dealer sells
them
  > > with a Bravo.. Since I've learned a bravo is about 3000.00 more, is
there no
  > > reason an Alpha can't do a comparable job?
  > >
  > > The few MPH I might pick up, being able to back up or track straighter
  > > doesn't really matter much to me.... are there other advantages I don't
know
  > > about, or don't understand?
  > >
  > > -j
  > >
  > >
 >
 >
 >
 > "... being able to back up or track straighter
  > > doesn't really matter much to me..."
 >
 >
 > You don't boat on Chesapeake Bay, I hope...
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alpha vs. Bravo 

Jay wrote:

 > Folks,
 >
 > Looking for some feelings on the comparative difference. I'm looking at a
 > 21 ft. sundeck model, with a 5.0, 260 horse. The local dealer sells them
 > with a Bravo.. Since I've learned a bravo is about 3000.00 more, is there no
 > reason an Alpha can't do a comparable job?
 >
 > The few MPH I might pick up, being able to back up or track straighter
 > doesn't really matter much to me.... are there other advantages I don't know
 > about, or don't understand?
 >
 > -j
 >
 >

260hp is the upper end of comfort with the Alpha drive. For the
$3000.00 difference, aren't you being offerred the Bravo 3? This combo,
the B3 with the 5.0/260, is common on the deck style boats. There is a
nice advantage to having the cone-clutch and CR props on these boats,
and the durability is a big plus. The lower unit drag is actually
higher with a Bravo than an Alpha, but the B3 CR props overcome that
slight speed disadvantage of the Bravo 1.

The Gen II Alpha is an OK drive, but they are still clunky with that
clutch dog shifter, and the higher power small blocks can be tough on them.

Rob<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alpha vs. Bravo 

The Bravo is a heavier drive. It will handle higher HP with less wear and
tear than the Alpha. I've had a Bravo for 8 years without any problems.


--
Keith & Laura Koether
Pleasure Island
Blue Ribbon Marina, Hogans Creek
Ohio River Mi. 497 RDB
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://thebayguide.com/rec.boats/koether.html" target="_blank">http://thebayguide.com/rec.boats/koether.html</a>

"Jay" <noneforyou.DeleteThis@here.ya> wrote in message
news:10454k2sru16b78@corp.supernews.com...
 > Sorry.. I guess I should have added that 95% of all use is on a landlocked
 > river..
 > Will probably launch from Westerly, R.I or off the cape.... but not
often..
 >
 > -j
 >
 > "Harry Krause" <piedtypecase.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
 > news:c1u38b$1njpcv$5@ID-21096.news.uni-berlin.de...
  > > Jay wrote:
  > >
   > > > Folks,
   > > >
   > > > Looking for some feelings on the comparative difference. I'm looking
at
 > a
   > > > 21 ft. sundeck model, with a 5.0, 260 horse. The local dealer sells
 > them
   > > > with a Bravo.. Since I've learned a bravo is about 3000.00 more, is
 > there no
   > > > reason an Alpha can't do a comparable job?
   > > >
   > > > The few MPH I might pick up, being able to back up or track straighter
   > > > doesn't really matter much to me.... are there other advantages I
don't
 > know
   > > > about, or don't understand?
   > > >
   > > > -j
   > > >
   > > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > "... being able to back up or track straighter
   > > > doesn't really matter much to me..."
  > >
  > >
  > > You don't boat on Chesapeake Bay, I hope...
  > >
  > >
  > >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alpha vs. Bravo 

Keith & Laura Koether wrote:
 > The Bravo is a heavier drive. It will handle higher HP with less wear and
 > tear than the Alpha. I've had a Bravo for 8 years without any problems.
 >
 >

I have a 5.0lx that is reted at 210hp The boat is a 95 Crownline 210ccr
that weights 3900lbs dry. We have a couple hundred hours on it without
any problems, just follow the routine maintance. My Fathers old boat was
a 85 Chris Craft bowrider (18 ft I think) with a 5.0lx and Alpha drive
and it did not have any failures that I know of.

Of course you are running a few more hp than either of the boats that I
have experiance with. It is amazing how they are getting so many more
ponies out of these blocks. If it were me I would opt for the Alpha. But
them we have had very good service from them.

The Bravo are good drives as well, many of my friends that run go-fast
boats have them mated to 454 etc. I still think at 260hp the Alpha would
be able to handle it with out any issues imho.

Capt Jack R..<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alpha vs. Bravo 

Hi Jay,

There are many differences in Alpha and Bravo drives.

First of all, Bravo drives come in 3 flavors. Bravo I, Bravo II, Bravo
III.
Unless you are into racing we won't go into B I drives.

Bravo II are heavy duty outdrives. They weigh almost twice as much as an
Alpha. The upper gear case houses industrial strength gears and shafts.
Bravo II drives are often used on heavy PC Cruisers or Houseboats. They turn
a large deep biting prop. Standard is 21"x21" Aluminum "paddle blade" type.
(Stainless is optional)

Premium built boats use Bravo II or III as standard equipment.

The lower unit has a very thick, damage resistant casing, and can be set
clockwise or counter clockwise without any changes to gearing. There are a
variety of gear ratios for the unit depending on application. 2.0:1 is
common, though 1.8:1 is often found in "junkyards" as well.

The Bravo III uses the same upper housing as the BII. The difference is in
the lower unit. The Bravo III uses counter rotating , stainless steel, props
which provide 15% greater fuel efficiency, and reduce bow wobble at low
speeds. This makes it much easier to hold a course. Since the props are
already counter rotating, most B-III drives are set up for right hand
rotation. This is easily changed by installing a different shift cable. The
Bravo III costs more, but will hold up much longer then an Alpha.

Neither Alpha nor Bravo drives are "user service friendly." Should you
need major repairs, refer the job to a MERCRUISER CERTIFIED shop. There are
a lot of jackleg boat mechanics that don't know, or care, what they are
doing, and can cost you thousands of dollars a few hours down the river.

A word about stainless props. All outdrives need to have their anodes
replaced. This is particularly necessary if you use stainless props. The
dis-similar metals set up galvanic corrosion. The anodes abate this. Replace
salt water anodes at least every six months if you store your boat dockside.
This will prevent lower unit "pinholeing". Bravo II and III drives are very
susceptible to damage arising from this small, but necessary, bit of
maintenance.

Hope this helps.



--
Capt. Frank

__c
\ _ | \_
__\_| oooo \_____
~~~~|______________/ ~~~~~
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.home.earthlink.net/~aartworks" target="_blank">www.home.earthlink.net/~aartworks</a>
"Jay" <noneforyou DeleteThis @here.ya> wrote in message
news:104516lmhbulue7@corp.supernews.com...
  > Folks,
  >
  > Looking for some feelings on the comparative difference. I'm looking at
a
  > 21 ft. sundeck model, with a 5.0, 260 horse. The local dealer sells
them
  > with a Bravo.. Since I've learned a bravo is about 3000.00 more, is
there no
  > reason an Alpha can't do a comparable job?
  >
  > The few MPH I might pick up, being able to back up or track straighter
  > doesn't really matter much to me.... are there other advantages I don't
know
  > about, or don't understand?
  >
  > -j
  >
  ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alpha vs. Bravo 

thanks to everyone for the feedback..
sounds like the bravo is nice to have for the extra money, otherwise for
something 21ft. it's not yet a necessity..

-j

"Capt Frank Hopkins" <aartworksSPAMEX.TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:57J0c.27854$hm4.6297@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
 >
 > Hi Jay,
 >
 > There are many differences in Alpha and Bravo drives.
 >
 > First of all, Bravo drives come in 3 flavors. Bravo I, Bravo II, Bravo
 > III.
 > Unless you are into racing we won't go into B I drives.
 >
 > Bravo II are heavy duty outdrives. They weigh almost twice as much as an
 > Alpha. The upper gear case houses industrial strength gears and shafts.
 > Bravo II drives are often used on heavy PC Cruisers or Houseboats. They
turn
 > a large deep biting prop. Standard is 21"x21" Aluminum "paddle blade"
type.
 > (Stainless is optional)
 >
 > Premium built boats use Bravo II or III as standard equipment.
 >
 > The lower unit has a very thick, damage resistant casing, and can be set
 > clockwise or counter clockwise without any changes to gearing. There are a
 > variety of gear ratios for the unit depending on application. 2.0:1 is
 > common, though 1.8:1 is often found in "junkyards" as well.
 >
 > The Bravo III uses the same upper housing as the BII. The difference is
in
 > the lower unit. The Bravo III uses counter rotating , stainless steel,
props
 > which provide 15% greater fuel efficiency, and reduce bow wobble at low
 > speeds. This makes it much easier to hold a course. Since the props are
 > already counter rotating, most B-III drives are set up for right hand
 > rotation. This is easily changed by installing a different shift cable.
The
 > Bravo III costs more, but will hold up much longer then an Alpha.
 >
 > Neither Alpha nor Bravo drives are "user service friendly." Should you
 > need major repairs, refer the job to a MERCRUISER CERTIFIED shop. There
are
 > a lot of jackleg boat mechanics that don't know, or care, what they are
 > doing, and can cost you thousands of dollars a few hours down the river.
 >
 > A word about stainless props. All outdrives need to have their anodes
 > replaced. This is particularly necessary if you use stainless props. The
 > dis-similar metals set up galvanic corrosion. The anodes abate this.
Replace
 > salt water anodes at least every six months if you store your boat
dockside.
 > This will prevent lower unit "pinholeing". Bravo II and III drives are
very
 > susceptible to damage arising from this small, but necessary, bit of
 > maintenance.
 >
 > Hope this helps.
 >
 >
 >
 > --
 > Capt. Frank
 >
 > __c
 > \ _ | \_
 > __\_| oooo \_____
 > ~~~~|______________/ ~~~~~
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.home.earthlink.net/~aartworks</font" target="_blank">www.home.earthlink.net/~aartworks</font</a>>
 > "Jay" <noneforyou.TakeThisOut@here.ya> wrote in message
 > news:104516lmhbulue7@corp.supernews.com...
  > > Folks,
  > >
  > > Looking for some feelings on the comparative difference. I'm looking
at
 > a
  > > 21 ft. sundeck model, with a 5.0, 260 horse. The local dealer sells
 > them
  > > with a Bravo.. Since I've learned a bravo is about 3000.00 more, is
 > there no
  > > reason an Alpha can't do a comparable job?
  > >
  > > The few MPH I might pick up, being able to back up or track straighter
  > > doesn't really matter much to me.... are there other advantages I
don't
 > know
  > > about, or don't understand?
  > >
  > > -j
  > >
  > >
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alpha vs. Bravo 

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:01:05 GMT, "Capt Frank Hopkins"
<aartworksSPAMEX.RemoveThis@earthlink.net> wrote:

 >
 > Hi Jay,
 >
 > There are many differences in Alpha and Bravo drives.
 >
 > First of all, Bravo drives come in 3 flavors. Bravo I, Bravo II, Bravo
 >III.
 > Unless you are into racing we won't go into B I drives.

Why? The Bravo 1 is not really a racing drive. The Bravo 1 is the
standard single prop drive designed to handle engine power in excess
of 300 HP. In other words, it's the standard drive for the big block
engines. It doesn't matter if the boat is a deck boat, a large
runabout or a performance boat.

True "racing" drives are similar to the TRS and the Speedmaster
series, which can take HP in excess of 750, and have very skinny
gearcases and low water pickups, and are typically designed to be run
with an elevated "X" dimension, to facilitate propeller surfacing, and
an even greater reduction in drag.

The Bravo 2 drive is a special application drive, where thrust is
important to move a heavy boat, such as a cabin cruiser. They are
geared low, in order to swing a larger prop. Since the drag of this
drive is much more than the B1, it's not recommended for boats that
are designed to exceed 50 MPH.

The Bravo 3 is simply a Bravo 1 with an extra prop stuck on the back.
In fact the early release of this drive used the Bravo 1 gearcase with
a ventilation plate extension. The Bravo 3 develops more thrust due to
more prop area in the water. This can have the effect of reducing prop
slip, which can therefore translate to improved midrange efficiency.
They can also reduce or eliminate prop blowout on turns. But, like the
Bravo 2, it presents a larger amount of drag, when compared to a Bravo
1, and is not the ideal choice if top speed is your primary
consideration.

Dave<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alpha vs. Bravo 

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 07:10:24 -0500, Dave Hall <nojunk_n3cvj DeleteThis @ptd.net>
wrote:

 >On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:01:05 GMT, "Capt Frank Hopkins"
 ><aartworksSPAMEX DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
 >
  >>
  >> Hi Jay,
  >>
  >> There are many differences in Alpha and Bravo drives.
  >>
  >> First of all, Bravo drives come in 3 flavors. Bravo I, Bravo II, Bravo
  >>III.
  >> Unless you are into racing we won't go into B I drives.
 >
 >Why? The Bravo 1 is not really a racing drive. The Bravo 1 is the
 >standard single prop drive designed to handle engine power in excess
 >of 300 HP. In other words, it's the standard drive for the big block
 >engines. It doesn't matter if the boat is a deck boat, a large
 >runabout or a performance boat.
 >
 >True "racing" drives are similar to the TRS and the Speedmaster
 >series, which can take HP in excess of 750, and have very skinny
 >gearcases and low water pickups, and are typically designed to be run
 >with an elevated "X" dimension, to facilitate propeller surfacing, and
 >an even greater reduction in drag.
 >
 >The Bravo 2 drive is a special application drive, where thrust is
 >important to move a heavy boat, such as a cabin cruiser. They are
 >geared low, in order to swing a larger prop. Since the drag of this
 >drive is much more than the B1, it's not recommended for boats that
 >are designed to exceed 50 MPH.
 >
 >The Bravo 3 is simply a Bravo 1 with an extra prop stuck on the back.
 >In fact the early release of this drive used the Bravo 1 gearcase with
 >a ventilation plate extension. The Bravo 3 develops more thrust due to
 >more prop area in the water. This can have the effect of reducing prop
 >slip, which can therefore translate to improved midrange efficiency.
 >They can also reduce or eliminate prop blowout on turns. But, like the
 >Bravo 2, it presents a larger amount of drag, when compared to a Bravo
 >1, and is not the ideal choice if top speed is your primary
 >consideration.

Sometimes, things just fall in your lap.

I was looking around the web the other day for just this type of
explanation concerning the Bravo drives and presto - it magically
appears!! Amazing!!

Ain't technology grand? :>)

Later,

Tom
S. Woodstock, CT
----------

Basic Fishing Program:

10 - Fish
20 - Eat
30 - Sleep
40 - Goto 10<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alpha vs. Bravo 

The bravo 3 is a very nice drive but the props are very pricey. They track
very straight forward and back and the shifting is very smooth. I would not
consider the single prop bravo for a small block v8, the alpha is up to
pretty much any small block unless the boat is really big or heavy. For a
while the alpha was mated to 330hp big blocks and a number of people had
problems with those. The alpha got a reputation for trouble with high power
engines during that time. I think that was not just the hp but also the
increased torque of the big block and that many were on boats in the 25ft
and up range. The engineering of the alpha is old but simple. It's age has
the plus side of there being a lot of people that can work on them and a
profusion of parts. Aftermarket part company competition has forced merc to
keep part prices reasonable for the alphas. I have had a 300+ hp small
block on an alpha for 4 years now without any problems.


"Jay" <noneforyou RemoveThis @here.ya> wrote in message
news:104516lmhbulue7@corp.supernews.com...
 > Folks,
 >
 > Looking for some feelings on the comparative difference. I'm looking at a
 > 21 ft. sundeck model, with a 5.0, 260 horse. The local dealer sells them
 > with a Bravo.. Since I've learned a bravo is about 3000.00 more, is there
no
 > reason an Alpha can't do a comparable job?
 >
 > The few MPH I might pick up, being able to back up or track straighter
 > doesn't really matter much to me.... are there other advantages I don't
know
 > about, or don't understand?
 >
 > -j
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alpha vs. Bravo 

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 23:28:22 GMT, "Lawrence James"
<jamesgangnc.DeleteThis@earthlink.nospam.net> wrote:

 >The bravo 3 is a very nice drive but the props are very pricey.

That much is true. You have 2 times the stainless, so it's 2 times the
cost.


 > they track
 >very straight forward and back and the shifting is very smooth.

Much of what causes wander on a planing hull boat at displacement
speeds has more to do with hull design, than the drive. While a
counter rotating drive such as a Bravo 3 or Volvo Duo-prop can
mitigate much of this, it cannot eliminate it. Usually it takes twin
drives spaced far enough apart, to have sufficient leverage.


 > I would not
 >consider the single prop bravo for a small block v8, the alpha is up to
 >pretty much any small block unless the boat is really big or heavy.

Here, I would respectfully disagree. If someone has the chance to make
the choice between an Alpha drive or a Bravo (Which usually means an
engine package that's near the borderline in HP), I'd opt for the
Bravo. The Bravo drive is built heavier, so it should be practically
bulletproof for engines on the low side of the horsepower curve. The
Bravo also utilizes a cone clutch which shifts smoother, and lasts
longer than the Alpha's dog clutch. Another side benefit here is the
elimination of the often troublesome ignition interrupter which is
needed to momentarily remove torque from the Alpha's dog clutch to
enable a smooth shift. It's a band-aid, which is not needed with a
cone clutch. Finally, the Bravo drive uses an engine mounted sea water
pump, rather than an internal to the drive unit. That means that you
can replace the impeller while the boat is in the water.

Yes, the initial cost of the Bravo drive will be higher, but you get
what you pay for. Peace of mind and convenience sometimes cannot be
given a price tag.


 > For a
 >while the alpha was mated to 330hp big blocks and a number of people had
 >problems with those. The alpha got a reputation for trouble with high power
 >engines during that time. I think that was not just the hp but also the
 >increased torque of the big block and that many were on boats in the 25ft
 >and up range.

You could "get by" with larger HP on an Alpha, if you took care to
"baby" the drive, and not do anything that would strain it. But I
would hate to have to worry about it.


 > The engineering of the alpha is old but simple. It's age has
 >the plus side of there being a lot of people that can work on them and a
 >profusion of parts.

The Bravo is not that much harder to work on. And because the Bravo is
a popular drive for the "go fast" set, there are all sorts of
aftermarket modifications, parts are plentiful, and there are a
plethora of shops that specialize in the Bravo.


 > Aftermarket part company competition has forced merc to
 >keep part prices reasonable for the alphas. I have had a 300+ hp small
 >block on an alpha for 4 years now without any problems.

Hopefully this year will not be the year for your first problem. If
you take care of your drive, it should be ok, but you have to be more
conscious of the limitations of an Alpha drive with that much HP.
Converting to a Bravo, may not be cost effective for someone with a
used boat (You can probably rebuild an Alpha twice for the cost to
convert to a Bravo). But I'd opt for the Bravo on a new boat if I had
the choice.

Dave<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Alpha vs. Bravo