American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction

I know that white oak used to be used sometimes for planking in Scandanavian
clinker construction, and made for hell-for-stout but heavy hulls. It would
make for a rather heavy dinghy, and the planks would likely require steam
bending at least at the bow. You might consider Alaskan yellow cedar for the
planking; it's light and strong, and I wouldn't call it brittle. Port Orford
cedar, if available to you, tends to split lengthwise down a considerable
length of the plank if something happens to it to cause it to split, but
Alaskan yellow has more interlocked grain and damage remains more localized.
White oak is great for the keel timbers and stem, green white oak if
carefully chosen for clearness and grain runout would steam-bend quite well
for the frames. Another good choice for the steam-bent frames is locust. In
your dreams, you'd find a white oak natural crook for the stem and transom
knees. White oak, on the other hand, doesn't like being wet all the time,
and a keel of white oak might take some damage from rot if water is left in
the bottom of the boat a lot. A superb keel timber is purpleheart, but it's
extremely difficult to work with hand tools and even heavier than white oak.
Some folks like to get out the sheer strake from Honduras mahogany, both for
strength and for appearance. Mahogany is also a good choice for the transom
and transom framing, the stringers for the thwarts, and the thwarts
themselves. Teak floorboards, perhaps 5/16" thick in order to take the
slight bend, could be left altogether unfinished so as not to be slippery
when wet, but would not deteriorate from exposure to weather. If you should
use mahogany for the sheer strake, you may have to steam-bend the part of
the plank that takes the bend at the bow. By the way, avoid so-called
Philippine mahogany - it's not a true mahogany but actually a type of
tropical cedar and is a totally inferior boat building wood.

As to white oak species, as I've sometimes heard said, "White oak seems to
grow on a lot of different kinds of stumps." The species you're after is
quercus alba.

Hope this helps,
Tom Dacon

"Al" <Almann DeleteThis @mygaff.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e31eb333.0309190854.268d21fe@posting.google.com...
 > I've just got a quote back from a company on planking stock. The
 > White Oak came in at around £20 cheaper (negligible) and therefore
 > price is not a consideration. The HMSO Handbooks of Hard and Soft
 > woods make the White Oak sound like a very good material, particularly
 > with regard to bending with a downside of a tendency to dull tools and
 > variability in quality dependant on the precise species and
 > environment. It made the Cedar out to be a rather brittle material,
 > although easy to work, although no precise mechanical properties are
 > available in my edition (1957 reprinted '60).
 >
 > Appearance is a secondary consideration to strength in this
 > application and ease of working. Which would you consider to be the
 > better timber to use for a 9foot stem dinghy expected to last a while,
 > given that this is my first foray into traditional construction?
 >
 > I would also be grateful if suggestions could be made about suitable
 > centreline materials, again, strength and suitability being primary to
 > appearance. Leather suggests a mixture of Mahogany (Utile is
 > available), Iroko or Oak in his book "Clinker Boatbuilding" but I'd be
 > interested in other's opinions.
 >
 > Thanks for your time and suggestions.
 >
 > Al<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:19:23 -0700, "Tom Dacon" <Tom.TakeThisOut@dacons.com>
wrote:
 > You might consider Alaskan yellow cedar for the
 >planking; it's light and strong, and I wouldn't call it brittle. Port Orford
 >cedar, if available to you, tends to split lengthwise down a considerable
 >length of the plank if something happens to it to cause it to split, but
 >Alaskan yellow has more interlocked grain and damage remains more localized.

I built a small boat of AYC. Yellow cedar "comes and goes a lot" as an
old-timer told me. The boat was prone to splitting when dried out.

 >Some folks like to get out the sheer strake from Honduras mahogany, both for
 >strength and for appearance. Mahogany is also a good choice for the transom
 >and transom framing, the stringers for the thwarts, and the thwarts
 >themselves.

 >By the way, avoid so-called
 >Philippine mahogany - it's not a true mahogany but actually a type of
 >tropical cedar and is a totally inferior boat building wood.

These days it is pretty much trash. However, some of the finest boats
were built of the wood. Not only Chris-Crafts but perhaps the finest
of the interwar boat yards, Nivens, used Philippine. Good stuff is
really quite good.

 >As to white oak species, as I've sometimes heard said, "White oak seems to
 >grow on a lot of different kinds of stumps." The species you're after is
 >quercus alba.

Yep. Sometimes it seems like the white and red bins are just randomly
sorted. I've seen 1/3 red in the white pile.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

Nobody mentioned it, so I will. If you are using epoxy, be aware that white
oak can sometimes work, sometimes not. I've heard a lot of arguments as to
why, but I've not seen a lot of answers for how to guarantee that epoxy will
stick to white oak as well as it sticks to other types of woods. White oak
is more rot resistant than red, so don't be tempted to use red oak because
it glues better.

Brian

--
My boat project: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass" target="_blank">http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass</a>


"Al" <Almann.RemoveThis@mygaff.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e31eb333.0309190854.268d21fe@posting.google.com...
 > I've just got a quote back from a company on planking stock. The
 > White Oak came in at around £20 cheaper (negligible) and therefore
 > price is not a consideration. The HMSO Handbooks of Hard and Soft
 > woods make the White Oak sound like a very good material, particularly
 > with regard to bending with a downside of a tendency to dull tools and
 > variability in quality dependant on the precise species and
 > environment. It made the Cedar out to be a rather brittle material,
 > although easy to work, although no precise mechanical properties are
 > available in my edition (1957 reprinted '60).
 >
 > Appearance is a secondary consideration to strength in this
 > application and ease of working. Which would you consider to be the
 > better timber to use for a 9foot stem dinghy expected to last a while,
 > given that this is my first foray into traditional construction?
 >
 > I would also be grateful if suggestions could be made about suitable
 > centreline materials, again, strength and suitability being primary to
 > appearance. Leather suggests a mixture of Mahogany (Utile is
 > available), Iroko or Oak in his book "Clinker Boatbuilding" but I'd be
 > interested in other's opinions.
 >
 > Thanks for your time and suggestions.
 >
 > Al<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 05:19:16 GMT, "Brian D"
<briandNS.TakeThisOut@advantagecomposites.comNS> wrote:

 >Nobody mentioned it, so I will. If you are using epoxy, be aware that white
 >oak can sometimes work, sometimes not. I've heard a lot of arguments as to
 >why, but I've not seen a lot of answers for how to guarantee that epoxy will
 >stick to white oak as well as it sticks to other types of woods. White oak
 >is more rot resistant than red, so don't be tempted to use red oak because
 >it glues better.

That's right.

'Course, with any luck, one needn't use epoxy at all in this kind of
construction.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

 > Nobody mentioned it, so I will. If you are using epoxy, be aware that white
 > oak can sometimes work, sometimes not. I've heard a lot of arguments as to
 > why, but I've not seen a lot of answers for how to guarantee that epoxy will
 > stick to white oak as well as it sticks to other types of woods. White oak
 > is more rot resistant than red, so don't be tempted to use red oak because
 > it glues better.

I'm using clinker construction in a bid to keep glue/resin usage to a
minimum. I don't particularly enjoy working with epoxies, but I do
enjoy working with mechanical fastenings and good quality wood. I may
have to laminate knees however as I can't come up with any sources for
grown crooks, and the stem will have to be, at least in part, a
lamination.

As far as the cedar goes, I only have Western Red available to me, I
apologise for not specifying this earlier, does this alter your
analysis? As a matter of interest, why are you recommending the cedar
over the oak, is it just ease of working?

Thanks

Al<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

On 20 Sep 2003 04:30:27 -0700, Almann.DeleteThis@mygaff.fsnet.co.uk (Al) wrote:

  >> Nobody mentioned it, so I will. If you are using epoxy, be aware that white
  >> oak can sometimes work, sometimes not. I've heard a lot of arguments as to
  >> why, but I've not seen a lot of answers for how to guarantee that epoxy will
  >> stick to white oak as well as it sticks to other types of woods. White oak
  >> is more rot resistant than red, so don't be tempted to use red oak because
  >> it glues better.
 >
 >I'm using clinker construction in a bid to keep glue/resin usage to a
 >minimum. I don't particularly enjoy working with epoxies, but I do
 >enjoy working with mechanical fastenings and good quality wood.
Great! I agree. Slathering goo is not particularly enjoyable to me.

 > I may
 >have to laminate knees however as I can't come up with any sources for
 >grown crooks, and the stem will have to be, at least in part, a
 >lamination.
There are specialist that offer crooks. Do a Google search. Here are
some suggestions for your side of the Atlantic:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.covboat.demon.co.uk/sustainability.htm" target="_blank">http://www.covboat.demon.co.uk/sustainability.htm</a>

If you have time you can easily get apple from an orchard which is
being pulled out. Takes time to season though.

 >As far as the cedar goes, I only have Western Red available to me, I
 >apologise for not specifying this earlier, does this alter your
 >analysis? As a matter of interest, why are you recommending the cedar
 >over the oak, is it just ease of working?

In the US, as far as I know, oak was never used for small boat
planking.

Oak is heavy and hard to work. It is stronger of course. The strength
is just not needed. The Lawley yard had a saying about their thin
scantlings on their dinghies. Something to the effect that if the boat
is going on the rocks, the difference between 3/8 and 7/16 is not
important.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

Brian D wrote:

 > Nobody mentioned it, so I will. If you are using epoxy, be aware that white
 > oak can sometimes work, sometimes not. I've heard a lot of arguments as to
 > why, but I've not seen a lot of answers for how to guarantee that epoxy will
 > stick to white oak as well as it sticks to other types of woods.

I suspect that the problem lies in the tannic acid in the wood. I've been
working with green red oak lately, which discolors tool beds and cutting tools,
and the wood ends up with black streaks where you cut it with steel tools or run
it across an iron tool bed. Anyway, the point is that epoxy is neutralized by
acids, which is why vinegar is used to clean up uncured epoxy spills. It
neutralizes the epoxy so it will not cure, making it easier to remove. I suspect
that the same thing is happening with the tannic acid in oak.

--
Regards

Brian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

Al (Almann@mygaff.fsnet.co.uk) writes:

 >...It made the Cedar out to be a rather brittle material,
 > although easy to work, although no precise mechanical properties are
 > available in my edition (1957 reprinted '60).
 >
 > Appearance is a secondary consideration to strength in this
 > application and ease of working.

eastern white cedar is actually durable and easy to work. that's why
natives used it for the ribs and lining of birchbark canoes over all the
other native woods avaiable to them. clear, staight grained cedar was
split into 1/8 thick lining planks by hand. I owned a 22 year old cedar
skiff from <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.cedarboats.com" target="_blank">www.cedarboats.com</a> as a boy. Whenever my grandfather wanted to
whittle anything he'd pick out a piece of cedar from the wood pile.
Easiest wood to split to kindle a fire. I assume western red cedar would
have similar qualities. I use the red cedar in the framing on my small
cheap plywood boats along with lumberyard spruce.

--
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warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

Hi

"P.C. Ford" <cwservices2.DeleteThis@qwest.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:b7pomv80alips31og0r443ei6tsjf8p1df@4ax.com...
 > On 20 Sep 2003 04:30:27 -0700, Almann.DeleteThis@mygaff.fsnet.co.uk (Al) wrote:

Snip

  > >As far as the cedar goes, I only have Western Red available to me, I
  > >apologise for not specifying this earlier, does this alter your
  > >analysis? As a matter of interest, why are you recommending the cedar
  > >over the oak, is it just ease of working?
 >
 > In the US, as far as I know, oak was never used for small boat
 > planking.
 >
 > Oak is heavy and hard to work. It is stronger of course. The strength
 > is just not needed. The Lawley yard had a saying about their thin
 > scantlings on their dinghies. Something to the effect that if the boat
 > is going on the rocks, the difference between 3/8 and 7/16 is not
 > important.

Now Oak work different in thin planks. Oak and Ash have some simularity with
these matters, but a thin Oak plank is a different thing than a softwood or near
softwood .
Oak don't like it to dry and ofcaurse you can prefere a good Larch from a bad
Oak, but done right , and with top quality wood Oak add more than just the good
looks, it will drain your bank account, unless you master just a few skills,
Oak is perfect for Lapstrake boats, and with Epoxy , you can lenghten any plank
so you can experience a lapstrake boat without butts, in Oak , where the rule
is, that this can be 2/3 thickness now it is stronger wood.
Still why do you bother, Computer drawings with unfolded planks do exist with
Cyber-Boat, but from my best knowleage , most unfolding is done from smothened
single curved skins . You can hardly find modern designs, that is projected and
the most "modern" lapstrake design, that you would reconise, is the danish
folkboat .
Still with materials you have a wide choice even the computer thing is fiddeling
and square box in inches , ---------- Nice boats was once build in this smart
building method, even it still is difficult to project in 3D ,you can chose high
quality , but please read about Oak before you decide, as what you need is the
true gray Oak not the "Oak" that is often used with furniture , do it carry
acid and is bone hard or is it a weak specie for outdoor use even nice and
without knots ; with Oak you can ask cirain qualities.
BTW. --------- A Lapstrake is the one that carry less frames , acturly they are
build without, and the ribs put in after, this acturly define the Lapstrake
method , compared other methods.
With Cyber-Boat you will find true 3D Lapstrake computer models, being the basis
for the unfolded planks , but I guess no one even care that with 3D-H you can
complete the Lapstrake method, with a perfect 3D-Honeycomb framework, at last
one reliable, that can be cut from sheet material, Anyway the 3D-H building
method, that offer you to build a new WTC without the weak trusses and hangers,
proberly will produce very few true Lapstrake boats. Mahogony is what I prefered
when I made boats .Only later I taken lame cheap chipwood into consideration,
and acturly offer plans for a tremendures Longboat , that you can build
extremely cheap , the plans are free ,the plans don't care if it is plywood or
crome plated Gold , but if you realy want to make good use of thin Oak planks,
why didn't you check the full-scale plans here ;

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/" target="_blank">http://w1.1396.telia.com/~u139600113/</a>

Or ;
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cyber-Boat/</a>

O.T. you can se what 3D-H can produce , beside boat frames ;
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2806.html" target="_blank">http://www.designcommunity.com/scrapbook/2806.html</a>

P.C.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/structure-testbench/" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/structure-testbench/</a>
Check Foto's folder for design.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

 > Oak don't like it to dry

am I reading the correct implication that oak will tend to split when
dried out, but that softwood is likely to cope better and split less?

 > Still why do you bother,

partly because I want a challenge, partly because I want to work with
high quality materials and avoid resins (my day job is making
resins... I see enough of them and read enough MSDS' to put me off for
life), but I think mostly because there is something about a
"traditionally" constructed craft that gets me excited in a way that
composite boats don't. S&G definitely has it's place, and epoxy/wood
composite boats are excellent for light weight, ease of construction,
ease of maintenance, but _for_me_ they are not as interesting or
stimulating as clinker craft.

And a very small perverted part of me wants to do it just because
various authorities think it'll be far too hard for me

Life is for living!

Al<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

It's like any hobby... if you look around, you can find boats cheap...
IMO, cheaper than you can build 'em, if you account for your time
especially), and often cheaper than the materials. I'm building them
for the experience, taxing my skills, the sense of accomplishment, etc.

Ed

Brian D wrote:
> Go for it. I think one of the reasons that you see resins being glopped
> around so much is because it is getting so darn hard, and expensive, to find
> good wood anymore. At least in any length ...
>
> Brian
>
> PS: I'm an epoxy glopper, but I will most definately go the traditional
> route at some point and take my time with a more artistic expression of
> boatology... which probably means clinker construction (MHO).
>
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

> Sound you are not fanatic about it, and you shuldn't be.

Epoxy is a tool like any other in my book. If I hit a situation
during the project in which epoxy is the sensible route to take
(against my definition of sensible. Most people would say that
building using the easiest, lightest weight method would be
sensible... killjoys ;-p), I will make use of it. I may well use it
at some point in the stem to avoid the hassles of stop waters.
However, this is a boat that will shrink and swell, that will respond
to the temperature, to it's environments. Copper has a little give in
it whereas epoxy will tend to be pretty immobile, I suspect that there
is potential over time for the epoxy to induce stress fractures in the
timber. And at the end of the day, copper/timber is an old method
that has stood up well to time. Epoxy hasn't had the same kind of
long term (centuries) testing.

Anyhow, plans are in the post. Thanks to Pat for pointing out crook
supplier, I'll look into that when I've worked out my requirements.
Thanks for all comments, right now I'm looking at western red cedar
for planking, whatever I can get for knees etc. (probably oak from the
literature). Centreline is still in question, although I'm tempted by
Iroko or Utile as what I've read indicates good mechanical properties
coupled with good looks. Ribs are hopefully suitable bending oak,
failing that, probably ash. Foils are tricky, Leather suggesting
"Mahogany" which leads me back in the Iroko/Utile direction. Any
thoughts?

Oars and spars are of course in Spruce. Thwarts are looking like
Utile/Iroko, again for looks... I weigh a paltry 11stones so
mechanical properties are not a big problem.

Can anyone spot any major problems in the above list?

Final question, I'm looking at getting hold of something like a 10
foot 3x6 as the backbone of my building jig. Presumably I can get
away with Pine/Fir for this as long as I check it to avoid warp and
plane it true?

Thanks to everyone, there aren't many newsgroups I would consider as a
source for valuable advice (used in conjunction with suitable
literature), but I have learned over the past few years to have
tremendous respect for more or less every poster here. Thanks.

Al
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction 

Almann.TakeThisOut@mygaff.fsnet.co.uk (Al) wrote in message I may
 > have to laminate knees however as I can't come up with any sources for
 > grown crooks, and the stem will have to be, at least in part, a
 > lamination.

 > Al

If you are looking for grown crooks, Try:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.newmansknees.com/" target="_blank">http://www.newmansknees.com/</a>
Disclamimer, they are a client.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: American White Oak vs Cedar in clinker construction