Dinghy sailing in bigger winds

On 29 Sep, 08:07, alast....DeleteThis@as4jg.freeuk.com (Alastair) wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:36:53 -0700, toad <toad_oftoadh....DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk>

> I think there is a cultural difference here. I suspect that toad has
> only sailed with a safety boat in attendance.

Nice attempt at a dig! For me rescue cover has only been available
when racing & haven't always be racing. Obviously, trips away with the
boat have always been without rescue cover. In other words, all the
racing I've done has been with rescue cover. All the 'sailing for the
sake of sailing' I've done has been without rescue boat. I've done
multiple trips at sea of 15 nautical miles or more in open dinghies
over the years.

> Under these
> circumstances a capsize is just a minor inconvenience

A capsize is always a minor inconvinience. It's part of the fun. If a
capsize was likely to be be a major problem dinghy sailing would be
rather dangerous!

> and a sail that
> is too big for the wind is just an added excitement. If sailing alone
> without safety cover an oversize sail becomes life threatening.

Bullshit. Utter bullshit. A capsize is always part of the fun! What
are you going to say next? That wiping out in a windsurfer alone is
life threatening? Are you one of the multitude of twats that calls the
coastgaurd every time they see a catamaram capsize?

> If you are actually trying to get somewhere, rather than just sailing
> round some cans, then the chance of a capsize becomes much less
> desirable.

So in your opinion this 25kg and 50kg sailors were asking for this
advice in order to do long sea passages with a cadet full of gear?

> I have only ever sailed with a couple of dinghies that were unable to
> reef. On each boat this has caused safety problems with a commitment
> by the owners to fit reef points.

Which strongly suggests that you have only sailed a small number of
rather pedestrian 'Frank Dye'esque dinghies that are completely
untypical of 99 per cent of dinghies.

Who knows, maybe you are right, maybe the OP will come back and tell
us these kids are sailing to the Baltic in heavy weather with their
cadet loaded up with cooking gear and bedding. However I suspect they
are just going out for a blast and a bit of fun. I doubt they will
sail at a club that provides rescue cover for them 24/7 (who does?)
but I'm pretty sure they can handle capsizes.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

On 29 Sep, 08:12, Pete <psty....RemoveThis@spamlessntlworld.com> wrote:

> you might be less familiar with the way
> in which small dinghies are sailed and raced.

Staggeringly so.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

On 29 Sep, 07:51, Pete <psty... DeleteThis @spamlessntlworld.com> wrote:

> For these young lads at their stage in development, just knowing that
> you need to flatten off in a blow, and how to achieve that, is probably
> all the tuning knowledge that they require.

Totally agree. Whilst you can't argue that reading up on the detail of
sail trim is a _bad_ thing, it already looks like they know what they
need to know, and it's just a case of going out, doing it a lot, and
getting used to the idea that binning it in a cloud of spray is an
essential part of the fun.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

On 29 Sep, 09:23, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee....TakeThisOut@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> Also I think it unfair to accuse cruising dinghy sailors of cowardice in not
enjoying capsizes.

I can't see where anyone has. None the less, capsizing is part of
dinghy sailing. If you don't like being fish food from time to time
give up trying and plod around in a keelboat.

> Also, recovery from
> a capsize is usually not a problem in calm water, but I challenge you to try
> it solo with a large swell or breaking waves.

Swell, errrr, of course I have. Breaking waves? Ok, you have me here,
I've never been out in breaking waves. (Breaking waves occuring at f10
on the Beaufort scale!) Unless you're talking about breaking waves on
the beach - again fighting your way through a few rows of surf is just
part of the fun.

> Probably if he's talking winds over f4, then the thing to do is
> to take the kids to the cinema instead, as for young children of that weight
> that's probably too much for them anyway.

I'm dumbfounded! Where would you and I be today if our parents had
stopped us sailing when it was over f4?

They'll go out, they'll fall in a bit and they'll have a lot of fun,
and they'll be beating the adults in all weathers within 3 seasons.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

On 29 Sep, 10:29, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee... DeleteThis @tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> There's swell, and there's swell.
> Breaking waves can happen in a lot less than a f10. Inded if you look at
> the charts for many of the coasts of Ireland and parts of the coast of the
> Isle of Man, which I was quoting from, you'll see 'breakers' marked, which
> indicate areas which often have breaking waves in much less than f10 winds.
> Also, simply wading in to the beach may be an option where there is a nice
> sandy beach, but at the base of cliffs or over rocks (both of which also
> cause breaking waves) it is impossible, and dangerous to try.
> I can see that some of my experience may not be relevant to these lads who
> may well be in a more friendly environment

Seeking out overfalls while battling alone in conditions where even a
low performance dinghy needs reefs; away from any kind of hospitable
landing place? All without risk of a capsize.

Impressive.

....but rather hard to reconcile with the Duncan Heenan who wrote to a
sailing mag to admit he hired a charter boat in the calm shelter of
the Solent and took it back early because he couldn't manage.

The thing about exploing cliffs by dinghy is that, no matter how
intimidating and sheer and high and crumbling they seem, as you get
closer in there always seems to be somewhere you can get into.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:36:53 -0700, toad <toad_oftoadhall RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 29 Sep, 00:11, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee... RemoveThis @tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> "toad" <toad_oftoadh... RemoveThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1191010525.055370.135190@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 28 Sep, 20:52, alast... RemoveThis @as4jg.freeuk.com (Alastair) wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:33:19 +0100, "Duncan Heenan"
>>
>> >> <duncanhee... RemoveThis @tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >> >"Stephen Page" <st... RemoveThis @the-page-family.net> wrote in message
>> >> >news:1190959412.812271.309090@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>> >> >> Hey chaps/chapesses
>>
>> >> >> My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
>> >> >> badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
>> >> >> them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>>
>> >> >> So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
>> >> >> cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
>> >> >> bow.
>>
>> >> >> So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
>> >> >> away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
>> >> >> there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.
>>
>> >> >> What else can we do?
>>
>> >> >> Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
>> >> >> training video we can watch?
>>
>> >> >> Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.
>>
>> >> >> Stephen Page
>>
>> >> >Has the main sail got reefing points in? If so reef.
>> >> >If not talk to a sail maker and consider getting a reef put in. Not
>> >> >expensive and very helpful in big wind.
>>
>> >> Ah, good. I'm glad someone else is as ignorant as me about good
>> >> seamanship.
>>
>> > You do both seem to have forgotten the basics of sail trimming.
>>
>> No but there comes a point at which trimming is not enough and you have to
>> reduce the total sail area
>
>The complete lack of any provision for reefing dinghy sails would seem
>to indicate that it is quite possible to effectively de-power without
>reefing. IMHO reefing would be a clumsy, inflexible and agricultural
>method to reduce power on a dinghy. Getting used to handling and
>enjoying the power and getting used to reducing it using standard
>methods would be far more profitable for these two lads.
>

I think there is a cultural difference here. I suspect that toad has
only sailed with a safety boat in attendance. Under these
circumstances a capsize is just a minor inconvenience and a sail that
is too big for the wind is just an added excitement. If sailing alone
without safety cover an oversize sail becomes life threatening.

If you are actually trying to get somewhere, rather than just sailing
round some cans, then the chance of a capsize becomes much less
desirable.

I have only ever sailed with a couple of dinghies that were unable to
reef. On each boat this has caused safety problems with a commitment
by the owners to fit reef points.

An alternative may be a set of heavy weather sails.
--
Alastair
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

Alastair wrote:


>>Has the main sail got reefing points in? If so reef.
>>If not talk to a sail maker and consider getting a reef put in. Not
>>expensive and very helpful in big wind.
>
>
> Ah, good. I'm glad someone else is as ignorant as me about good
> seamanship.
>
>
> --
> Alastair
Alistair, I wasn't suggesting that you were in any way igorant on the
subject of seamanship, but that you might be less familiar with the way
in which small dingies are sailed and raced. Dingy sailing of the type
under discussion here is a water sport where learning to sail in
threatening conditions is part of both the skill and the fun. Others may
correct me, but I would doubt that there are even a handful of Cadets in
the country with reefable sails. This wouldn't, of course, be the case
for eg Wayfarers because some are used for different purposes. (At the
other end of the scale, the Sidney Harbour 18ft skiffs have different
rigs for different conditions, but that's another story entirely!)
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

Alastair wrote:

>
> I think there is a cultural difference here. I suspect that toad has
> only sailed with a safety boat in attendance. Under these
> circumstances a capsize is just a minor inconvenience and a sail that
> is too big for the wind is just an added excitement. If sailing alone
> without safety cover an oversize sail becomes life threatening.
>
> If you are actually trying to get somewhere, rather than just sailing
> round some cans, then the chance of a capsize becomes much less
> desirable.
>
> I have only ever sailed with a couple of dinghies that were unable to
> reef. On each boat this has caused safety problems with a commitment
> by the owners to fit reef points.
>
> An alternative may be a set of heavy weather sails.
> --
> Alastair
OK, I hear where you are coming from. However, I suspect that these lads
are trying to have fun with their mates, probably by racing. As you
say, a cultural diference.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

Schöön Martin <Martin.Schoon.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:

> Stephen Page <steve.RemoveThis@the-page-family.net> writes:
>
> > Hey chaps/chapesses
> >
> > My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
> > badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
> > them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
> >
> > So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
> > cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting the
> > bow.
> >
> > So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
> > away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
> > there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting go.
> >
> > What else can we do?
> >
> > Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there a
> > training video we can watch?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.
> >
> > Stephen Page
> >
>
> Frank Bethwaithe's 10+ years old book High Performance Sailing
> is full of tuning and handling tips in various wind and wave
> conditions.
>
> --
> Martin Schöön <martin.schoon.RemoveThis@gmail.com>
>
> "Problems worthy of attack
> prove their worth by hitting back"
> Piet Hein

It's available on amazon uk from about 15 GBP.

Stan
--
---------------------
The newsman
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

T. Newsman wrote:

> Schöön Martin <Martin.Schoon RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Frank Bethwaithe's 10+ years old book High Performance Sailing
>>is full of tuning and handling tips in various wind and wave
>>conditions.
>>
>>--
>
> It's available on amazon uk from about 15 GBP.
>
> Stan
.... but it's one hell of a technical read, and I would question whether
this is the sort of book which will really help then OP. I'm a firm
believer in the fact that helming skills are MUCH more important than
boat tune until you start getting to the front of a competetive fleet.
For these young lads at their stage in development, just knowing that
you need to flatten off in a blow, and how to achieve that, is probably
all the tuning knowledge that they require. The Bethwaite book is
wonderful in its own way, but will either sit on the shelf unread or set
the lads on a wild goose chase imagining that the secret lies in the
science of it all. Put a top class sailor in a back marker's boat, and
he will still go quickly (even without adjusting anything). Reverse the
scenario and the back marker won't go one jot faster than in his own boat.
The trick is to identify what's really important for the average sailor,
which is why I'm such a fan of the Twiname book - that's exactly what he
sets out to do, and, IMHO, achieves it.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

On 29 Sep, 11:51, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee....DeleteThis@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> "toad" <toad_oftoadh....DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1191060939.185400.27160@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 29 Sep, 10:29, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee....DeleteThis@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> There's swell, and there's swell.
> >> Breaking waves can happen in a lot less than a f10. Inded if you look at
> >> the charts for many of the coasts of Ireland and parts of the coast of
> >> the
> >> Isle of Man, which I was quoting from, you'll see 'breakers' marked,
> >> which
> >> indicate areas which often have breaking waves in much less than f10
> >> winds.
> >> Also, simply wading in to the beach may be an option where there is a
> >> nice
> >> sandy beach, but at the base of cliffs or over rocks (both of which also
> >> cause breaking waves) it is impossible, and dangerous to try.
> >> I can see that some of my experience may not be relevant to these lads
> >> who
> >> may well be in a more friendly environment
>
> > Seeking out overfalls while battling alone in conditions where even a
> > low performance dinghy needs reefs; away from any kind of hospitable
> > landing place? All without risk of a capsize.
>
> > Impressive.
>
> > ...but rather hard to reconcile with the Duncan Heenan who wrote to a
> > sailing mag to admit he hired a charter boat in the calm shelter of
> > the Solent and took it back early because he couldn't manage.
>
> > The thing about exploing cliffs by dinghy is that, no matter how
> > intimidating and sheer and high and crumbling they seem, as you get
> > closer in there always seems to be somewhere you can get into.
>
> You are off your trolley again Toad. I wrote no such letter.
> I did write a reply though, which was published. It is reproduced below:

Whoops. Please accept my apologies. It was a genuine mistake.

> When attempting to take the piss, it's always better to remain accurate, as
> otherwise you look like rather silly.

Sadly this is true, and all I can do is apologise.

I'm pretty certain you must have been misquoted on UKRS at some point
because I ditinctly recal the _original_ letter being attributed to
you but google groups hasn't helped.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

On 29 Sep, 15:55, Matt Colie <mattco....TakeThisOut@providenospam.net> wrote:

> There are several issues here that have been completely ignored.
> 1 - A cadet class dinghy is set with more sail than 75k of kids can
> handle in a blow <given>.

I don't buy that. I've seen drastically underweight crews handle all
kinds of exotic powerful boats in all kinds of conditions. I've
singlehanded a fireball in a f5 and I've seen someone else single hand
a 505 in the same kind of wind.

> 4 - The boat is swampable(?) self rescue may not be trivial.
> (We do not know where the boys are sailing and knocking down may be
> life threatening due to temperature.)

We can assume they are wearing appropriate kit. Wet or Dry suit. The
days when people sailed open boats in tweed suits are long gone. We
can assume they are safe. I think we can assume a cadet can be safely
righted even if it doesn't come up dry like modern classes.

>In actual fact, the upper end of this scale will be
> approaching survival sailing in such a boat.

Survival? Survival? Perlease!
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds 

"toad" <toad_oftoadhall.DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191026213.166542.87780@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On 29 Sep, 00:11, "Duncan Heenan" <duncanhee....DeleteThis@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>> "toad" <toad_oftoadh....DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1191010525.055370.135190@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 28 Sep, 20:52, alast....DeleteThis@as4jg.freeuk.com (Alastair) wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:33:19 +0100, "Duncan Heenan"
>>
>> >> <duncanhee....DeleteThis@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >> >"Stephen Page" <st....DeleteThis@the-page-family.net> wrote in message
>> >> >news:1190959412.812271.309090@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>> >> >> Hey chaps/chapesses
>>
>> >> >> My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs)
>> >> >> struggle
>> >> >> badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to
>> >> >> guide
>> >> >> them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.
>>
>> >> >> So far I have (a) rake the mast back (b) de-power the sails with
>> >> >> cunningham/outhaul/kicker (c) sit further back on a run, lifting
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> bow.
>>
>> >> >> So what am I missing? I seem to think that pointing up or bearing
>> >> >> away when a gust comes has a bearing on this. I also seem to think
>> >> >> there are better techniques of easing the sails than just letting
>> >> >> go.
>>
>> >> >> What else can we do?
>>
>> >> >> Is there a good book to read that will guide us through? Is there
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> training video we can watch?
>>
>> >> >> Thanks in advance for any help/advice you can give us.
>>
>> >> >> Stephen Page
>>
>> >> >Has the main sail got reefing points in? If so reef.
>> >> >If not talk to a sail maker and consider getting a reef put in. Not
>> >> >expensive and very helpful in big wind.
>>
>> >> Ah, good. I'm glad someone else is as ignorant as me about good
>> >> seamanship.
>>
>> > You do both seem to have forgotten the basics of sail trimming.
>>
>> No but there comes a point at which trimming is not enough and you have
>> to
>> reduce the total sail area
>
> The complete lack of any provision for reefing dinghy sails would seem
> to indicate that it is quite possible to effectively de-power without
> reefing. IMHO reefing would be a clumsy, inflexible and agricultural
> method to reduce power on a dinghy. Getting used to handling and
> enjoying the power and getting used to reducing it using standard
> methods would be far more profitable for these two lads.
>
I've seen lots of dinghy sails with reefing points in. Indeed my own had 2
reefing points which were put in before I got it, and which I found useful
and enabled me to sail in dodgy conditions around the Isle of Man when
otherwise I would have stayed ashore. I accept that this was solo cruising,
which is probably a lot different from racing or messing about near the
sailing club.
In the waters I was in (usually single handed) the weather and sea
conditions could change dramatically and quickly, especially as there are
many headlands, tides and cliffs around that coast, plus the Irish Sea
weather generally. Consequently the ability to reduce sail was important.
Also I think it unfair to accuse cruising dinghy sailors of cowardice in not
enjoying capsizes. I can agree that they are not the end of the world, but
they can lead to you losing some or all your gear and getting very cold
(which matters when you may be out for many hours yet). Also, recovery from
a capsize is usually not a problem in calm water, but I challenge you to try
it solo with a large swell or breaking waves.
So maybe I am coming at this from a different perspective from the OP, but
he seemed to be saying he'd tried all the sail trimming stuff, and what more
could he do. Probably if he's talking winds over f4, then the thing to do is
to take the kids to the cinema instead, as for young children of that weight
that's probably too much for them anyway.
 >> Stay informed about: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds