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Dinghy sailing in bigger winds

 
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David Spencer

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Since: Oct 29, 2003
Posts: 2



(Msg. 46) Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>boats>racing, others (more info?)

Stephen Page <steve.TakeThisOut@the-page-family.net> writes:

>Hey chaps/chapesses

>My two sons sail/race Cadets and, being light (50kgs+23kgs) struggle
>badly in the bigger winds (f4+). I don't have the expertise to guide
>them but I believe it is as much a matter of technique as weight.

Rig tuning is essential; you can get that out of a cookbook. But there
are two key skills for heavy air:

1. Sailing the boat on the traveller and sheets, not the tiller.
Play the traveler (and then the sheets) to keep the boat flat and the
helm just to weather of neutral. The tiller is just a mechanism for
transmitting informtion on how to play the traveller and sheet, not
for steering the boat.

Playing a traveller in heavy air is hard, hard upper-body work. The
mainsheet trimmer will need to build upper-body strength and stamina.


2. Reading the wind. To play the traveller and sheets effectively,
the trimmers must anticipate every puff and hole. The crew has to
watch the wind on the water and count the puffs and holes down to the
boat. Then the maintrimmer can ease or tighten in anticipation of the
change, not in reaction to it.


Caveat: I don't know anything about Cadets; I sail one-design
keelboats (such as Etchells and Sonars). But the principle is the
same. I've seen light crews do very well in national and
international regattas; the key is to keep the foils -- sails,
keel/centerboard and rudder -- from stalling.

--
dhs spencer.TakeThisOut@panix.com

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Andy Champ1

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Since: Sep 01, 2003
Posts: 47



(Msg. 47) Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:10 pm
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Matt Colie wrote:
> Andy,
>
> The big difference, is the dynamic characteristics of the two boats. It
> is much more than the sail area to weight ratio.

True but...
>
> There is also a big difference in the fact that a Lazer is a "wet ass"
> boat (sailboard) and can not flood.

I picked a Laser because everyone will know it. You could pick almost
any single hander.

I sail a National Solo, which AFAIK is only sailed in the UK, Holland
and Australia. I'm about 80Kg, and there is a lady who almost
invariably beats me who is nowhere near *that* much. It floods on
capsize, and the sail is bigger than a Laser. The same is true of the
better known Finn, or the OK, and I'm sure many others. But that
doesn't matter, *unless you are overpressed and capsize*.
>
> My Lazer has very different performance characteristics than any pram.
> It will accelerate and plane, thus both decreasing the hull drag and
> increasing the hydrodynamic load capability of the foils (board and
> rudder). This allows me to pull the relative wind forward with my own
> forward velocity and thereby change the effective trim without moving
> anything. No pram that I know of can do this.

IMHO they'll be having most trouble on beats, when the apparent wind is
highest (though not by much at Cadet speeds) and the force from the
sails is mainly across the boat. That's when you run out of weight. If
your Lazer (sic) planes upwind, then you aren't talking about the same
boat I was.

>
> There is also the experience factor here. If both onboard a Cadet are
> as old as the class allows, I quite certainly have more sailing
> experience than any two cadets sailing. This does matter. IMHO

We agree there. As I said,

"There are three things that really matter.

Practice, more practice, and even more practice."

Andy

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Goofball_star_dot_etal

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Since: Sep 30, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 48) Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:35 pm
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On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:05:02 -0700, Stephen Page
<steve.TakeThisOut@the-page-family.net> wrote:

>Well, chaps and chapesses
>
>I am overwhelmed by your kindness and knowledge, one and all.
>
>Rounding up (and responding to) one or two point with some more
>input,
>
>- my boys are aged 12 and 7 and setting out on their sailing careers.

There is always Sumo wrestling to consider..
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toad

External


Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 17



(Msg. 49) Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:07 am
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On 30 Sep, 03:31, Matt Colie <mattco....RemoveThis@providenospam.net> wrote:

> I quite certainly have more sailing
> experience than any two cadets sailing.

How do you propose they get experience if they don't take their boat
out when it blows because they're (alledgedly) too light. They're
learning the way we all learned. Going out and doing it. It didn't do
us any harm, did it?
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toad

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Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 17



(Msg. 50) Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:22 am
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On 29 Sep, 21:53, Matt Colie <mattco....DeleteThis@providenospam.net> wrote:
> toad wrote:
> >
> > We can assume they are wearing appropriate kit. Wet or Dry suit.
>
> We can not assume this.

No but I do sail against young sailors from time to time and I've yet
to see one who didn't own a wet suit in recent times.

> One
> of the objects of a youth sailing program is not to scare the youth out
> of sailing.

Yet you are bandying hysterical words like 'survival' around and
suggesting they can't sail their boat at all for lack of weight.
Hardly likely to inspire them with confidence!

Going out sailing in a blow may well be intimidating for them at first
- and that is why it's essential that they get stuck in and do it as
much as possible a) for the feeling the euphoria of overcoming a
challenge b) so they can compete with their peers right now in a wide
range of conditions and c) so they don't grow up to be frightened of
wind and waves which would rather limit their future sailing!

> >> In actual fact, the upper end of this scale will be
> >> approaching survival sailing in such a boat.
>
> > Survival? Survival? Perlease!
>
> That is my opinion.

LOL! If you think capsizing a dinghy is risky try windsurfing or kite
surfing or water skiing any of the other sports where a dunking is
just part of the fun. Even worse downhill skiiing where falling over
on stuff that can actually break limbs is part of the fun. A sailing
boat is one of the safest places you can be!

> This can and will make
> the smaller boats much harder to handle than one might expect.

I think that bollocks but if it were true it would be even more reason
to get out there frequently and master it so they can have even more
fun and compete with their friends.
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toad

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Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 17



(Msg. 51) Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:59 am
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Archived from groups: uk>rec>sailing, others (more info?)

On 1 Oct, 10:28, Martin <m....DeleteThis@address.invalid> wrote:

>
> http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/gettingstarted.htm

Kids can't sail cadets in a good breeze eh?

http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/events/2007/weymouth/images/weymouth05.jpg

Judging by the white horses and spray that's to be a f5 or better.
Survival conditions? They don't seem to think so!
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Martyn H

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Since: Oct 01, 2007
Posts: 2



(Msg. 52) Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:11 am
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Archived from groups: rec>boats>racing, others (more info?)

On Sep 29, 10:01 am, Pete <psty... RemoveThis @spamlessntlworld.com> wrote:
> Duncan Heenan wrote:
>
> Also I think it unfair to accuse cruising dinghy sailors of> cowardice in not enjoying capsizes.
>
> That's not what toad and I are saying. What we are trying to do is offer
> advice that is relevant to the situation (ie young lads learning to sail
> and probably race in a small training dinghy).
> The best advice is life usually comes from people with some knowledge
> and experience of the topic in question!!
> I have no wish to criticise how you chose to enjoy your sailing, but
> with due respect, I don't think that your and Alastair's experiences
> qualify you to advise these lads.

in dinghy racing capsizing is part of the 'fun' it's also the
penalty you pay for cocking up

'race training' can be divided into two parts once people have a
basic appreciation and level of skill in boat handling and wind
awareness - what the the ' RYA level 2 ' of old taught ...

the two parts - making the boat go fast and racing the boat

first you need to be able ot make your boat perform to the norms for
the class then you need to make it go where it will win the race

until you can
a. do basic boat handling i nthe conditions
b. make the boat perform to the norms in the conditions
c. trying to race the boat is ultimately pointless

kit wise - wetsuits end up with a short life for children due tothe
way in which they work, but dry suits can be brought with some space
to 'grow into '
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Martyn H

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Since: Oct 01, 2007
Posts: 2



(Msg. 53) Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:14 am
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On Sep 30, 11:46 am, martin.sch... DeleteThis @gmail.com (Martin Schöön) wrote:
> Stephen Page <st... DeleteThis @the-page-family.net> writes:
> > - their objective currently is indeed sailing round cans. We're doing
> > the East Zone Championship today, for example.
>
> If Cadet sailors are a friendly crowd there should be a lot of advice
> to be found during a regatta weekend.
>
don't know aobut the cadet class, but the optimist has a horrendous
reputation ( don't know if it is deserved , havign missed out that bit
of youth sailing due to not starting sailling until 12 and not
startign racing seriously unti l14 or so ) for competitive parents and
for people misleading others
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chrisR

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Since: Oct 01, 2007
Posts: 1



(Msg. 54) Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:17 am
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"toad" <toad_oftoadhall.TakeThisOut@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1191226921.645815.290200@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> On 29 Sep, 21:53, Matt Colie <mattco....TakeThisOut@providenospam.net> wrote:
> > toad wrote:
> > >
> > > We can assume they are wearing appropriate kit. Wet or Dry suit.
> >
> > We can not assume this.
>
> No but I do sail against young sailors from time to time and I've yet
> to see one who didn't own a wet suit in recent times.
>
> > One
> > of the objects of a youth sailing program is not to scare the youth out
> > of sailing.
>
> Yet you are bandying hysterical words like 'survival' around and
> suggesting they can't sail their boat at all for lack of weight.
> Hardly likely to inspire them with confidence!
>
> Going out sailing in a blow may well be intimidating for them at first
> - and that is why it's essential that they get stuck in and do it as
> much as possible a) for the feeling the euphoria of overcoming a
> challenge b) so they can compete with their peers right now in a wide
> range of conditions and c) so they don't grow up to be frightened of
> wind and waves which would rather limit their future sailing!
>
> > >> In actual fact, the upper end of this scale will be
> > >> approaching survival sailing in such a boat.
> >
> > > Survival? Survival? Perlease!
> >
> > That is my opinion.
>
> LOL! If you think capsizing a dinghy is risky try windsurfing or kite
> surfing or water skiing any of the other sports where a dunking is
> just part of the fun. Even worse downhill skiiing where falling over
> on stuff that can actually break limbs is part of the fun. A sailing
> boat is one of the safest places you can be!
>
> > This can and will make
> > the smaller boats much harder to handle than one might expect.
>
> I think that bollocks but if it were true it would be even more reason
> to get out there frequently and master it so they can have even more
> fun and compete with their friends.
>

I have never sailed a Cadet but remember competing with them in the Mirror I
owned more years back than I care to remember. IIRC the Cadet was a
training dinghy for youngsters maybe a step up from the Optimist so
presumably they were designed to be sailed by inexperienced, lightweight
crew and not too demanding. AFAIR they sailed OK in the Thames Estuary, do
not remember them having any reefing system. Most had no wet suits then,
just a woolly bobble hat, clammy PVC jacket, shorts and plimsolls and if you
were lucky one of those yellow plastic waistcoats masquerading as a buoyancy
aid failing which an ex MN Kapok strait jacket "thingy". We did have a
rescue boat though. But we went out sailing every Saturday and Sunday in
almost any conditions. Must have been stark raving bonkers!

Chris
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Alastair

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Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 5



(Msg. 55) Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:48 pm
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On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:03:13 -0700, toad <toad_oftoadhall DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 29 Sep, 08:07, alast... DeleteThis @as4jg.freeuk.com (Alastair) wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:36:53 -0700, toad <toad_oftoadh... DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk>
>
>> I think there is a cultural difference here. I suspect that toad has
>> only sailed with a safety boat in attendance.
>
>Nice attempt at a dig! For me rescue cover has only been available
>when racing & haven't always be racing. Obviously, trips away with the
>boat have always been without rescue cover. In other words, all the
>racing I've done has been with rescue cover. All the 'sailing for the
>sake of sailing' I've done has been without rescue boat. I've done
>multiple trips at sea of 15 nautical miles or more in open dinghies
>over the years.

?? No dig intended, from what you said, that was my suspicion.

>> Under these
>> circumstances a capsize is just a minor inconvenience
>
>A capsize is always a minor inconvinience. It's part of the fun. If a
>capsize was likely to be be a major problem dinghy sailing would be
>rather dangerous!

There we must continue to disagree.

>> and a sail that
>> is too big for the wind is just an added excitement. If sailing alone
>> without safety cover an oversize sail becomes life threatening.
>
>Bullshit. Utter bullshit. A capsize is always part of the fun! What
>are you going to say next? That wiping out in a windsurfer alone is
>life threatening? Are you one of the multitude of twats that calls the
>coastgaurd every time they see a catamaram capsize?

Always? Why bother to go sailing then? you could just spend your time
falling in. Bringing in craft like windsurfers, which are entirely
different, is beneath you.

>> If you are actually trying to get somewhere, rather than just sailing
>> round some cans, then the chance of a capsize becomes much less
>> desirable.
>
>So in your opinion this 25kg and 50kg sailors were asking for this
>advice in order to do long sea passages with a cadet full of gear?

Sail/race was all the OP said.

>> I have only ever sailed with a couple of dinghies that were unable to
>> reef. On each boat this has caused safety problems with a commitment
>> by the owners to fit reef points.
>
>Which strongly suggests that you have only sailed a small number of
>rather pedestrian 'Frank Dye'esque dinghies that are completely
>untypical of 99 per cent of dinghies.

Here I must partly agree with you, what *I* sail is completely
untypical of 99 per cent of dinghies.

>Who knows, maybe you are right, maybe the OP will come back and tell
>us these kids are sailing to the Baltic in heavy weather with their
>cadet loaded up with cooking gear and bedding. However I suspect they
>are just going out for a blast and a bit of fun. I doubt they will
>sail at a club that provides rescue cover for them 24/7 (who does?)
>but I'm pretty sure they can handle capsizes.
>

Why do you get so excited when someone has different opinions to you?
You may be 100% right about the OP's situation but that doesn't stop
reefing being an option to be considered, even if it is later
rejected.
--
Alastair
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T. Newsman

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Since: Sep 29, 2007
Posts: 2



(Msg. 56) Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Dinghy sailing in bigger winds [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: uk>rec>sailing, others (more info?)

toad <toad_oftoadhall.DeleteThis@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 1 Oct, 10:28, Martin <m....DeleteThis@address.invalid> wrote:
>
> >
> > http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/gettingstarted.htm
>
> Kids can't sail cadets in a good breeze eh?
>
> http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/events/2007/weymouth/images/weymouth05.jpg
>
> Judging by the white horses and spray that's to be a f5 or better.
> Survival conditions? They don't seem to think so!

F5 ? don't think so from this photo, but kids do suprise me, and I have
seen cadets in winds above that....
--
---------------------
The newsman
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toad

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Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 17



(Msg. 57) Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:55 am
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On 1 Oct, 21:31, news... DeleteThis @tenbit.pl (T. Newsman) wrote:
> toad <toad_oftoadh... DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 1 Oct, 10:28, Martin <m... DeleteThis @address.invalid> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/gettingstarted.htm
>
> > Kids can't sail cadets in a good breeze eh?
>
> >http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/events/2007/weymouth/images/weymouth05.jpg
>
> > Judging by the white horses and spray that's to be a f5 or better.
> > Survival conditions? They don't seem to think so!
>
> F5 ? don't think so from this photo,

I reckoned wavelets and white horses in the shelter of Portland
Harbour pointed to a f5 but maybe not. Estimating wind strength is a
black art IMHO. If you get four people in a boat you'll have 4
different windspeed estimates and when you check Bramble Met you find
none of you were right. Smile
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toad

External


Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 17



(Msg. 58) Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:19 am
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On 2 Oct, 13:46, Goofball_star_dot_etal <w... DeleteThis @needs.email.anyhow>
wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:55:26 -0700, toad <toad_oftoadh... DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On 1 Oct, 21:31, news... DeleteThis @tenbit.pl (T. Newsman) wrote:
> >> toad <toad_oftoadh... DeleteThis @yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> > On 1 Oct, 10:28, Martin <m... DeleteThis @address.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> > >http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/gettingstarted.htm
>
> >> > Kids can't sail cadets in a good breeze eh?
>
> >> >http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/events/2007/weymouth/images/weymouth05.jpg
>
> >> > Judging by the white horses and spray that's to be a f5 or better.
> >> > Survival conditions? They don't seem to think so!
>
> >> F5 ? don't think so from this photo,
>
> >I reckoned wavelets and white horses in the shelter of Portland
> >Harbour pointed to a f5 but maybe not. Estimating wind strength is a
> >black art IMHO. If you get four people in a boat you'll have 4
> >different windspeed estimates and when you check Bramble Met you find
> >none of you were right. Smile
>
> Only if they are lubbers!

I make no claim to be anything other than a lubber, but I note that T
Newsman reckons that photo depicts a lot less than a f5, you reckon
just touching a f5 and I reckon it's a 'good' f5. Which seems to
demonstrate my point!

> I would not argue with F5 (bottom end), although it always looks more
> than it is looking into the wind and in sunshine and less than it is
> in photos and sheltered waters,

I'd go along with that. When windstrength in Portland Hbr came up I
referred to a photo of myself windurfing in Portland Hbr on a day when
I know it was blowing well. Sure enough I'm planing hard with a small
rig which for a fat bastard like confirms my memory is correct and
there was plenty of breeze. However, apart from flying spray round a
rather rapid Toad, the sea is flat with no white horses - you'd say it
was a 2-3.

> Watching instuments generally causes people to overestimate IMO
> because people remember the peaks

If 1000 sailors sailed all day in 15-25kts of wind and saw one 35kt
gust, 999 would go home and tell the missus "It was gusting 35kts". I
am one of the 999 and long may it continue!
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Goofball_star_dot_etal

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Since: Sep 30, 2007
Posts: 4



(Msg. 59) Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:46 pm
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On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:55:26 -0700, toad <toad_oftoadhall.RemoveThis@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 1 Oct, 21:31, news....RemoveThis@tenbit.pl (T. Newsman) wrote:
>> toad <toad_oftoadh....RemoveThis@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> > On 1 Oct, 10:28, Martin <m....RemoveThis@address.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> > >http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/gettingstarted.htm
>>
>> > Kids can't sail cadets in a good breeze eh?
>>
>> >http://www.cadetclass.org.uk/events/2007/weymouth/images/weymouth05.jpg
>>
>> > Judging by the white horses and spray that's to be a f5 or better.
>> > Survival conditions? They don't seem to think so!
>>
>> F5 ? don't think so from this photo,
>
>I reckoned wavelets and white horses in the shelter of Portland
>Harbour pointed to a f5 but maybe not. Estimating wind strength is a
>black art IMHO. If you get four people in a boat you'll have 4
>different windspeed estimates and when you check Bramble Met you find
>none of you were right. Smile

Only if they are lubbers!

I would not argue with F5 (bottom end), although it always looks more
than it is looking into the wind and in sunshine and less than it is
in photos and sheltered waters, so it is difficult to tell unless you
are there..

Watching instuments generally causes people to overestimate IMO
because people remember the peaks and can't be bothered to try to do
vector addition in their heads either..
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Alastair

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Since: Sep 28, 2007
Posts: 5



(Msg. 60) Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:09 pm
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On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:19:18 -0700, toad <toad_oftoadhall.RemoveThis@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 2 Oct, 13:46, Goofball_star_dot_etal <w....RemoveThis@needs.email.anyhow>
>wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:55:26 -0700, toad <toad_oftoadh....RemoveThis@yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:

>> >I reckoned wavelets and white horses in the shelter of Portland
>> >Harbour pointed to a f5 but maybe not. Estimating wind strength is a
>> >black art IMHO. If you get four people in a boat you'll have 4
>> >different windspeed estimates and when you check Bramble Met you find
>> >none of you were right. Smile
>>
>> Only if they are lubbers!
>
>I make no claim to be anything other than a lubber, but I note that T
>Newsman reckons that photo depicts a lot less than a f5, you reckon
>just touching a f5 and I reckon it's a 'good' f5. Which seems to
>demonstrate my point!
>

What? That none of you are right?

:->


--
Alastair
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