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ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water.

 
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Andina Marie

External


Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 2



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:50 am
Post subject: ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water.
Archived from groups: rec>boats>building (more info?)

I posted this on another bulletin where a contributor had bonded all
his underwater metal with 1" copper straps and needed to test. Copied
here for anyone having electrolysis problems.

An ohm meter is a poor way to check bonding connections. I use a 12
volt lamp and make a probe using a screwdriver. Hook a long enough
wire to the positive terminal of the starting battery and then poke
the screwdriver into each of the through hull fittings and make sure
the lamp lights. An ohm meter is only testing the circuit at micro-
amps.

The following applies mainly to boats left in the water. Trailered
boats rarely spend enough time in the water for electrolysis to be a
problem.

ELECTROLYSIS 101. I've worked with electrolysis for 18 years
including live-aboard on a steel yacht for 14. We have sold thousands
of our galvanic isolators and handle numerous emails/phone calls daily
on electrolysis situations.

BONDING STRAPS

Although your copper straps look impressive they are totally
unnecessary. The wire at the most only carries a few milliamps and
there is no concern for voltage drop so the copper only needs to be
heavy enough to resist deterioration from oxidation. A 10 gauge
copper wire is more than adequate. I use non stranded 10 gauge bare
copper wire for my installations, being careful to secure it so it is
not subject to flexing from boat motion. Non stranded wire has much
less surface area and avoids the cavities between the strands where
moisture and corrosion/oxidation can progress.

THEORY

Electrolysis only happens when two dissimilar metals are immersed in
an electrolyte and connected together. The dissimilar metals have
different electrolysis voltages so if you connect them together
current flows through the connecting wire one direction and through
the water the other. As the current leaves one metal to travel to the
other, it causes metal to come off one surface and be deposited on the
other like battery plates so the higher voltage metal suffers
electrolysis. Electrolysis can also occur when an adjacent structure
or boat is injecting DC current into the water and that current goes
in one end of your boat and out the other on its way to the
destination. This can cause electrolysis even though your boat is not
an offender.

PROTECTION

There are basically 2 ways to reduce electrolysis. The PREFERABLE one
is to DISCONNECT the electrical circuit. If this can't be done, the
second method is to provide a sacrificial anode (Zinc) so it
deteriorates rather than your expensive equipment.

a) DISCONNECTING

Electrolysis cannot occur on an isolated piece of metal in salt
water. It is all at the same voltage but if it is isolated no current
can flow so there is no electrolysis. When it is connected to another
piece of metal, ESPECIALLY if the other piece is a different metal,
you just created a shorted battery and electrolysis will start. By
following the wrong advise and bonding everything in the boat you are
creating batteries where it is unnecessary and making electrolysis
problems worse.

ANN-MARIE'S RULE #1. Only bond underwater items that are showing
symptoms of electrolysis. If it ain't broke, DON'T fix it. Once you
bond it unnecessarily you have CREATED the circuit rather than
DISCONNECTING it. You are now stuck with providing Zincs since you
have removed the first line of protection.

Although some through hulls appear to be isolated due to sitting in
fiberglass and using non-metallic tubing, they quite often are not and
WILL need bonding. For example the raw water cooling inlet for an
inboard engine is in fact connected to the engine block by the salt
water in the tubing and may need bonding so the current flows though
copper rather than the water and in/out of the through hull.

b) SACRIFICIAL ZINC

There are situations where different metals cannot be disconnected and
you are stuck with putting zincs on them to provided a target for the
electrolysis. Zincs have a higher electrolytic voltage than marine
metals so it is the first to deteriorate.

Keep in mind that the zinc will CREATE electrolysis (favorable
electrolysis since the zinc is being eaten up). Putting zincs where
they were not needed will still cause the zincs to erode away since
they create the battery situation where none may have existed.

The range of protection a zinc can supply to other metals bonded to it
is limited by the conductivity of the water. In salt water you get
coverage for a radius of about 4 to 6 feet. A zinc on the stern of a
14 ft boat where everything is bonded is only protecting half the
boat. This range gets even less in fresh water and may reduce to only
inches. Often magnesium is substituted for zinc in fresh water to
provide an even higher voltage to push through the fresh water.

USE A CONDOM

Over 90% of our customers electrolysis problems are created by the
shore power connection. You could theoretically disconnect the ground
connection in the shore power and avoid electrolysis (and in some
cases this is a solution) but ABYC regulations require the AC ground
be connected to the DC ground so an electrical fault on the boat won't
electrocute swimmers in the vicinity.

When you connect your underwater metal to the shore power ground you
have "bonded" with every other boat on the docks who have the same
connection. Now electrolysis currents are free to flow anywhere in
the marina and it only takes one boat with a 12 volt DC leakage to eat
up every boat within a wide radius even though the offender has zero
electrolysis evidence.

Your protection is a Galvanic Isolator in the ground connection of the
shore power lead. You don't have to purchase ours (although they are
typically less than 1/2 the price of our competitors). Any Galvanic
Isolator that meets AYBC specifications will do - they are not rocket
science and extremely reliable. We have sold thousands, all on
unconditional warranty and have never had a return due to failure.

Feel free to ask general interest questions here or email me if you
prefer.

 >> Stay informed about: ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water. 
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Steve Lusardi

External


Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 163



(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:59 am
Post subject: Re: ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Andina,
I found your synopsis of this issue very good. This problem is not
understood by most people. Please explain what a Galvanic Isolator is. I
find absolutely no reason to connect shore earth to your boat, ever. There
should be a ships earth and it should never be the hull, either on the AC
side or the DC side. The ships earth should be insolated from the hull.
There should be an LED mounted in an obvious location connected between the
hull and ships earth. Normally this LED would be off, unless there is a DC
leak to the hull. This would then allow the LED to turn on and alert the
crew to locate the fault immediately. On the AC side, an isolation
transformer is a necessity. The ships safety earth is then bonded to nuetral
at the panel only and the main ships ckt breaker should be of the GFI type.
Steve

"Andina Marie" <tech.RemoveThis@yandina.com> wrote in message
news:d053dac7-c81d-405c-8cdf-5b0e8705f206@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>I posted this on another bulletin where a contributor had bonded all
> his underwater metal with 1" copper straps and needed to test. Copied
> here for anyone having electrolysis problems.
>
> An ohm meter is a poor way to check bonding connections. I use a 12
> volt lamp and make a probe using a screwdriver. Hook a long enough
> wire to the positive terminal of the starting battery and then poke
> the screwdriver into each of the through hull fittings and make sure
> the lamp lights. An ohm meter is only testing the circuit at micro-
> amps.
>
> The following applies mainly to boats left in the water. Trailered
> boats rarely spend enough time in the water for electrolysis to be a
> problem.
>
> ELECTROLYSIS 101. I've worked with electrolysis for 18 years
> including live-aboard on a steel yacht for 14. We have sold thousands
> of our galvanic isolators and handle numerous emails/phone calls daily
> on electrolysis situations.
>
> BONDING STRAPS
>
> Although your copper straps look impressive they are totally
> unnecessary. The wire at the most only carries a few milliamps and
> there is no concern for voltage drop so the copper only needs to be
> heavy enough to resist deterioration from oxidation. A 10 gauge
> copper wire is more than adequate. I use non stranded 10 gauge bare
> copper wire for my installations, being careful to secure it so it is
> not subject to flexing from boat motion. Non stranded wire has much
> less surface area and avoids the cavities between the strands where
> moisture and corrosion/oxidation can progress.
>
> THEORY
>
> Electrolysis only happens when two dissimilar metals are immersed in
> an electrolyte and connected together. The dissimilar metals have
> different electrolysis voltages so if you connect them together
> current flows through the connecting wire one direction and through
> the water the other. As the current leaves one metal to travel to the
> other, it causes metal to come off one surface and be deposited on the
> other like battery plates so the higher voltage metal suffers
> electrolysis. Electrolysis can also occur when an adjacent structure
> or boat is injecting DC current into the water and that current goes
> in one end of your boat and out the other on its way to the
> destination. This can cause electrolysis even though your boat is not
> an offender.
>
> PROTECTION
>
> There are basically 2 ways to reduce electrolysis. The PREFERABLE one
> is to DISCONNECT the electrical circuit. If this can't be done, the
> second method is to provide a sacrificial anode (Zinc) so it
> deteriorates rather than your expensive equipment.
>
> a) DISCONNECTING
>
> Electrolysis cannot occur on an isolated piece of metal in salt
> water. It is all at the same voltage but if it is isolated no current
> can flow so there is no electrolysis. When it is connected to another
> piece of metal, ESPECIALLY if the other piece is a different metal,
> you just created a shorted battery and electrolysis will start. By
> following the wrong advise and bonding everything in the boat you are
> creating batteries where it is unnecessary and making electrolysis
> problems worse.
>
> ANN-MARIE'S RULE #1. Only bond underwater items that are showing
> symptoms of electrolysis. If it ain't broke, DON'T fix it. Once you
> bond it unnecessarily you have CREATED the circuit rather than
> DISCONNECTING it. You are now stuck with providing Zincs since you
> have removed the first line of protection.
>
> Although some through hulls appear to be isolated due to sitting in
> fiberglass and using non-metallic tubing, they quite often are not and
> WILL need bonding. For example the raw water cooling inlet for an
> inboard engine is in fact connected to the engine block by the salt
> water in the tubing and may need bonding so the current flows though
> copper rather than the water and in/out of the through hull.
>
> b) SACRIFICIAL ZINC
>
> There are situations where different metals cannot be disconnected and
> you are stuck with putting zincs on them to provided a target for the
> electrolysis. Zincs have a higher electrolytic voltage than marine
> metals so it is the first to deteriorate.
>
> Keep in mind that the zinc will CREATE electrolysis (favorable
> electrolysis since the zinc is being eaten up). Putting zincs where
> they were not needed will still cause the zincs to erode away since
> they create the battery situation where none may have existed.
>
> The range of protection a zinc can supply to other metals bonded to it
> is limited by the conductivity of the water. In salt water you get
> coverage for a radius of about 4 to 6 feet. A zinc on the stern of a
> 14 ft boat where everything is bonded is only protecting half the
> boat. This range gets even less in fresh water and may reduce to only
> inches. Often magnesium is substituted for zinc in fresh water to
> provide an even higher voltage to push through the fresh water.
>
> USE A CONDOM
>
> Over 90% of our customers electrolysis problems are created by the
> shore power connection. You could theoretically disconnect the ground
> connection in the shore power and avoid electrolysis (and in some
> cases this is a solution) but ABYC regulations require the AC ground
> be connected to the DC ground so an electrical fault on the boat won't
> electrocute swimmers in the vicinity.
>
> When you connect your underwater metal to the shore power ground you
> have "bonded" with every other boat on the docks who have the same
> connection. Now electrolysis currents are free to flow anywhere in
> the marina and it only takes one boat with a 12 volt DC leakage to eat
> up every boat within a wide radius even though the offender has zero
> electrolysis evidence.
>
> Your protection is a Galvanic Isolator in the ground connection of the
> shore power lead. You don't have to purchase ours (although they are
> typically less than 1/2 the price of our competitors). Any Galvanic
> Isolator that meets AYBC specifications will do - they are not rocket
> science and extremely reliable. We have sold thousands, all on
> unconditional warranty and have never had a return due to failure.
>
> Feel free to ask general interest questions here or email me if you
> prefer.

 >> Stay informed about: ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water. 
Back to top
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Andina Marie

External


Since: Jan 05, 2008
Posts: 2



(Msg. 3) Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:05 am
Post subject: Re: ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Jan 6, 6:06 am, "Steve Lusardi" <stevenos....RemoveThis@lusardi.de> wrote:
Andina,
I found your synopsis of this issue very good. This problem is not
understood by most people. Please explain what a Galvanic Isolator is.
I
find absolutely no reason to connect shore earth to your boat, ever.
There
should be a ships earth and it should never be the hull, either on the
AC
side or the DC side. The ships earth should be isolated from the hull.
There should be an LED mounted in an obvious location connected
between the
hull and ships earth. Normally this LED would be off, unless there is
a DC
leak to the hull. This would then allow the LED to turn on and alert
the
crew to locate the fault immediately. On the AC side, an isolation
transformer is a necessity. The ships safety earth is then bonded to
neutral
at the panel only and the main ships ckt breaker should be of the GFI
type.
Steve

REPLY from ANDINA.

A Galvanic isolator consists of back to back diodes which still
provide an electrical path for AC current but block DC voltages up to
about 1 volt. So the ground protection for electrical faults is
retained but the small DC voltages that cause electrolysis are
blocked. ABYC specifications require that the Galvanic Isolator be
able to carry 130% of rated current continuously. This is required
because if an appliance on a boat was wired incorrectly and using the
ground instead of the neutral, the total current would be flowing
through the isolator. Should the isolator then fail under load, the
AC would now be connected directly to the ground that has become
disconnected from the shore ground. This puts 120 volts AC on all the
underwater items on your boat which can KILL SWIMMERS IN THE VICINITY.

Your statement that:-

>I find absolutely no reason to connect shore earth to your boat, ever.

is very dangerous without explanation.

Omitting this connection can kill people.

On most boats you cannot isolate the DC ground from the underwater
metal because the starter motor is bolted to the engine block which in
turn connects to the propeller shaft and the water. So without the
ground, an internal failure of the battery charger could put 120 or
230 volts AC on your DC ground and into the water.

Relying on indicators or alarms is not a satisfactory solution, it
only takes milliseconds to kill someone.

Relying on a GFI Circuit breaker is not satisfactory. In salt water
the current flowing though a GFIC can kill a swimmer before the GFIC
can trip.

Now I agree that the probability of these worst case scenarios is
remote, however the consequences are grim. The ABYC specifications
err on the conservative side to avoid leaving the risk/consequence
decision up to the boat owner.

If using an isolation transformer the risk is miniscule. Isolation
transformers are extremely reliable, the only risk would be an
uninformed installer making an error in wiring up equipment. Without
the isolation transformer and with no ground you are betting the
reliability of your equipment against the life of swimmers in the
vicinity of your boat.

Regards,

Ann-Marie Foster,
tech.RemoveThis@yandina.com
 >> Stay informed about: ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water. 
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Brian Whatcott

External


Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 409



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:38 pm
Post subject: Re: ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 08:05:44 -0800 (PST), Andina Marie
<tech.DeleteThis@yandina.com> wrote:

....
>Relying on a GFI Circuit breaker is not satisfactory. In salt water
>the current flowing though a GFIC can kill a swimmer before the GFIC
>can trip.
....
>Regards,
>
>Ann-Marie Foster,
>tech@yandina.com

Do you have a reference supporting the lethality of GFIs
to swimmers, Ann-Marie?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK
 >> Stay informed about: ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water. 
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Steve Lusardi

External


Since: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 163



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:59 pm
Post subject: Re: ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water. [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

I run an Isolation transformer and I use an air starter.
Steve

"Andina Marie" <tech RemoveThis @yandina.com> wrote in message
news:434ae86c-7ace-4bec-bf8f-a76a6282dd5a@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 6, 6:06 am, "Steve Lusardi" <stevenos... RemoveThis @lusardi.de> wrote:
> Andina,
> I found your synopsis of this issue very good. This problem is not
> understood by most people. Please explain what a Galvanic Isolator is.
> I
> find absolutely no reason to connect shore earth to your boat, ever.
> There
> should be a ships earth and it should never be the hull, either on the
> AC
> side or the DC side. The ships earth should be isolated from the hull.
> There should be an LED mounted in an obvious location connected
> between the
> hull and ships earth. Normally this LED would be off, unless there is
> a DC
> leak to the hull. This would then allow the LED to turn on and alert
> the
> crew to locate the fault immediately. On the AC side, an isolation
> transformer is a necessity. The ships safety earth is then bonded to
> neutral
> at the panel only and the main ships ckt breaker should be of the GFI
> type.
> Steve
>
> REPLY from ANDINA.
>
> A Galvanic isolator consists of back to back diodes which still
> provide an electrical path for AC current but block DC voltages up to
> about 1 volt. So the ground protection for electrical faults is
> retained but the small DC voltages that cause electrolysis are
> blocked. ABYC specifications require that the Galvanic Isolator be
> able to carry 130% of rated current continuously. This is required
> because if an appliance on a boat was wired incorrectly and using the
> ground instead of the neutral, the total current would be flowing
> through the isolator. Should the isolator then fail under load, the
> AC would now be connected directly to the ground that has become
> disconnected from the shore ground. This puts 120 volts AC on all the
> underwater items on your boat which can KILL SWIMMERS IN THE VICINITY.
>
> Your statement that:-
>
>>I find absolutely no reason to connect shore earth to your boat, ever.
>
> is very dangerous without explanation.
>
> Omitting this connection can kill people.
>
> On most boats you cannot isolate the DC ground from the underwater
> metal because the starter motor is bolted to the engine block which in
> turn connects to the propeller shaft and the water. So without the
> ground, an internal failure of the battery charger could put 120 or
> 230 volts AC on your DC ground and into the water.
>
> Relying on indicators or alarms is not a satisfactory solution, it
> only takes milliseconds to kill someone.
>
> Relying on a GFI Circuit breaker is not satisfactory. In salt water
> the current flowing though a GFIC can kill a swimmer before the GFIC
> can trip.
>
> Now I agree that the probability of these worst case scenarios is
> remote, however the consequences are grim. The ABYC specifications
> err on the conservative side to avoid leaving the risk/consequence
> decision up to the boat owner.
>
> If using an isolation transformer the risk is miniscule. Isolation
> transformers are extremely reliable, the only risk would be an
> uninformed installer making an error in wiring up equipment. Without
> the isolation transformer and with no ground you are betting the
> reliability of your equipment against the life of swimmers in the
> vicinity of your boat.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ann-Marie Foster,
> tech RemoveThis @yandina.com
>
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: ELECTROLYSIS 101 for boats that live in the water. 
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