Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders?

Dnia Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:39:08 +0000, Island Teak napisał(a):

> Why would anyone pay to have a plywood clinker/lapstrake boat built
> rather than a traditionally built, solid wood, lapstrake/clinker boat ?
>
> ...Ken



Caeteris paribus - why not. If it costs the same, looks the same, weights
the same and sails the same - count me in.

Peter


*** no offence meant, no offence taken *** Well, if you push me...
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

Dnia Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:24:52 +0200, Steve Lusardi napisał(a):

> Your answer assumes the construction is better. It isn't and it would
> not be less money, so the question still begs your rational. Steve
>
> "Akita" <cutlass63 DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:g3ia2c$7hr$1@news2.task.gda.pl...
>> Dnia Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:39:08 +0000, Island Teak napisal(a):
>>
>>> Why would anyone pay to have a plywood clinker/lapstrake boat built
>>> rather than a traditionally built, solid wood, lapstrake/clinker boat
>>> ?
>>>
>>> ...Ken
>>
>>
>>
>> Caeteris paribus - why not. If it costs the same, looks the same,
>> weights the same and sails the same - count me in.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>>
>> *** no offence meant, no offence taken *** Well, if you push me...


OK, rephrasing my answer for better communication:

Because nobody offered me anything equal or better in all respects I
mentioned.

Making it even smpler: are you (or anybody you know is) ready to built
for me "a traditionally built, solid wood, lapstrake/clinker boat" better
or equal to Ness Yawl for the equivalent of 9000 EUR, not further than
2000 km from Corfu island? If so - let's discuss the deal.

Cheers,

Peter


--
*** no offence meant, no offence taken ***
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

Your answer assumes the construction is better. It isn't and it would not be
less money, so the question still begs your rational.
Steve

"Akita" <cutlass63 DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g3ia2c$7hr$1@news2.task.gda.pl...
> Dnia Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:39:08 +0000, Island Teak napisal(a):
>
>> Why would anyone pay to have a plywood clinker/lapstrake boat built
>> rather than a traditionally built, solid wood, lapstrake/clinker boat ?
>>
>> ...Ken
>
>
>
> Caeteris paribus - why not. If it costs the same, looks the same, weights
> the same and sails the same - count me in.
>
> Peter
>
>
> *** no offence meant, no offence taken *** Well, if you push me...
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

Island Teak wrote:

> Why would anyone pay to have a plywood clinker/lapstrake boat built rather
> than a traditionally built, solid wood, lapstrake/clinker boat ?
>

Could it be that a solid wood construction lives more with changes of
humidity, so leaks more the first day in water. This could make life hard
if the boat was going to live out of the water at times...

Just a wild guess, and probably wrong. I look forward to be corrected.

-H
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

Excuse me if I appear a bit negative and I certainly have no wish to rain on
your parade, but just what do you expect for 9K? I admit that I am not
familiar with your chosen design, but if it is larger than 18', your
expectations are out of order with reality. From experience, estimate the
total cost of the project in both time and money. Then double both and you
might be close, but I doubt it. My topside paint alone cost 16.5K.
Steve

"Akita" <cutlass63.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g3iit0$lvk$1@news2.task.gda.pl...
> Dnia Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:24:52 +0200, Steve Lusardi napisal(a):
>
>> Your answer assumes the construction is better. It isn't and it would
>> not be less money, so the question still begs your rational. Steve
>>
>> "Akita" <cutlass63.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:g3ia2c$7hr$1@news2.task.gda.pl...
>>> Dnia Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:39:08 +0000, Island Teak napisal(a):
>>>
>>>> Why would anyone pay to have a plywood clinker/lapstrake boat built
>>>> rather than a traditionally built, solid wood, lapstrake/clinker boat
>>>> ?
>>>>
>>>> ...Ken
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Caeteris paribus - why not. If it costs the same, looks the same,
>>> weights the same and sails the same - count me in.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> *** no offence meant, no offence taken *** Well, if you push me...
>
>
> OK, rephrasing my answer for better communication:
>
> Because nobody offered me anything equal or better in all respects I
> mentioned.
>
> Making it even smpler: are you (or anybody you know is) ready to built
> for me "a traditionally built, solid wood, lapstrake/clinker boat" better
> or equal to Ness Yawl for the equivalent of 9000 EUR, not further than
> 2000 km from Corfu island? If so - let's discuss the deal.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
>
> --
> *** no offence meant, no offence taken ***
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

Any properly built lapstrake/clinker boat takes a considerable amount of
time to build.
When it is finally done and either the bill is paid or you are looking at
your own work....it does come down to the quality of materials used.
When you compare tight, vertical grain, solid wood planking that has been
steam fitted with that of 'plywood' planking there is , in my opinion, no
comparism.
Some day there may be no alternative to plywood...but, until that day comes
there is still quality wood available and a clinker built boat is a damned
fine use of that wood !

A thin bead of polyurethane type expandable adhesive on the laps takes care
of any problems of putting a dry lapstrake boat back into the wet.



best regards...Ken





"Akita" <cutlass63.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g3ia2c$7hr$1@news2.task.gda.pl...
> Dnia Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:39:08 +0000, Island Teak napisal(a):
>
>> Why would anyone pay to have a plywood clinker/lapstrake boat built
>> rather than a traditionally built, solid wood, lapstrake/clinker boat ?
>>
>> ...Ken
>
>
>
> Caeteris paribus - why not. If it costs the same, looks the same, weights
> the same and sails the same - count me in.
>
> Peter
>
>
> *** no offence meant, no offence taken *** Well, if you push me...
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

Dnia Sun, 22 Jun 2008 00:35:03 +0200, Steve Lusardi napisał(a):

> Excuse me if I appear a bit negative and I certainly have no wish to
> rain on your parade, but just what do you expect for 9K? I admit that I
> am not familiar with your chosen design, but if it is larger than 18',
> your expectations are out of order with reality. From experience,
> estimate the total cost of the project in both time and money. Then
> double both and you might be close, but I doubt it. My topside paint
> alone cost 16.5K. Steve
>

Steve, Ken,

I am not sure what we are talking about. I have answered question asked
("Why...") and that is it. My choice is certainly different that yours -
and this is normal. You do not know the boat - fine, I do not expect you
to do the homework. But finally, what is your point, guys? I mean, apart
from the fact that you seem a bit disgusted with the fact that I am going
to sail *cheap* boat?

Cheers,

Peter

*** no offence meant, no offence taken ***
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

Dnia Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:38:47 +0200, Steve Lusardi napisał(a):

> I'm afraid you have missed the point. (...) do
> not start this project unless you have the resources, dedication and
> personal discipline to complete it. (etc., etc.)

Good advice is always appreciated. Thank you.


Peter

--
*** no offence meant, no offence taken ***
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

I'm afraid you have missed the point. This is a boat building news group.
Some of us here are at least are very experienced boat builders and the
point I am making, without insulting your intelligence is; do not start this
project unless you have the resources, dedication and personal discipline to
complete it. May I also point out that the same dedication better also be
shared by your family as well. There is no such thing as a cheap boat and
building is NOT the least expensive route to floating a boat. That position
is held by those people that buy other peoples boats that are sold in
desperation.
Steve

"Akita" <cutlass63.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g3kkaq$5rj$4@news2.task.gda.pl...
> Dnia Sun, 22 Jun 2008 00:35:03 +0200, Steve Lusardi napisal(a):
>
>> Excuse me if I appear a bit negative and I certainly have no wish to
>> rain on your parade, but just what do you expect for 9K? I admit that I
>> am not familiar with your chosen design, but if it is larger than 18',
>> your expectations are out of order with reality. From experience,
>> estimate the total cost of the project in both time and money. Then
>> double both and you might be close, but I doubt it. My topside paint
>> alone cost 16.5K. Steve
>>
>
> Steve, Ken,
>
> I am not sure what we are talking about. I have answered question asked
> ("Why...") and that is it. My choice is certainly different that yours -
> and this is normal. You do not know the boat - fine, I do not expect you
> to do the homework. But finally, what is your point, guys? I mean, apart
> from the fact that you seem a bit disgusted with the fact that I am going
> to sail *cheap* boat?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
> *** no offence meant, no offence taken ***
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

Peter, don't let all these naysayers discourage you from the direction
you're heading. Iain Oughtred's designs and the boats built from them are
very highly respected in the professional boat building community. His and
similar boats built from high-quality thin plywood with glued laps can be
damned fine boats. For another designer's take on it, look for example at
Tom Hill's superlights, which he's been building for tens of years. He has a
little beauty of a one-man canoe that he used to show off in his WoodenBoat
magazine ads by holding it over his head on the fingers of one hand.

Back issues of WoodenBoat magazine have copious commentary on the techique,
comparing it to solid wood construction and giving it high marks. Glued-lap
construction results in an essentially monocoque structure, giving
equivalent strength without requiring the quantity of framing that
conventional solid wood lapstrake construction requires, and resulting in
less wood movement as the boat takes on and loses moisture.

That's not to say that it's superior in all respects - some people just like
building in solid wood, and prefer the aesthetics. If I were to take on a
similar project, I'd probably eschew glued-lap plywood in favor of something
like Alaskan yellow cedar over locust frames, just because it's such a
lovely wood to work with hand tools and I like the color and grain. And I
just like riveting, what can I say. And as someone else said here, just a
tiny bead of sealant in the laps easily makes up for less than
perfectly-planed laps. But if I chose an Iain Oughtred design - and one or
two of them have sorely tempted me - I'd use his preferred construction
style.

Up here in Port Townsend, Washington, you almost can't walk down the
sidewalk without having to elbow a wooden boat builder out of the way. If
you polled them about glued-lap plywood in small boats, I'm willing to bet
that just about all of them past the apprentice phase of their careers would
say, "Sure, why not? Works fine."

I'm a long-time wooden boat owner myself (41', carvel planked of teak over
ipol frames), and I've also built a conventional lapstrake Herreshoff pram,
planked with Port Orford cedar, so I'm clearly in the solid wood
construction arena with my own boats, but I wouldn't hesitate to take on a
glued-lap plywood small boat if the right design came along. And maybe
someday it will.

To the naysayers, a good friend of mine, a boat builder himself among a vast
number of other marine skills - you'd recognize his name if you followed
traditional sail - says "There are only three 'only right ways' to do
anything."

Good luck finding a builder in your region,

Tom Dacon

To you others on this thread - how many small boats have you built? Come on
now, 'fess up.



"Akita" <cutlass63 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
news:g3lerl$5rj$5@news2.task.gda.pl...
> Dnia Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:38:47 +0200, Steve Lusardi napisal(a):
>
>> I'm afraid you have missed the point. (...) do
>> not start this project unless you have the resources, dedication and
>> personal discipline to complete it. (etc., etc.)
>
> Good advice is always appreciated. Thank you.
>
>
> Peter
>
> --
> *** no offence meant, no offence taken ***
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

Dnia Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:25:58 -0700, Tom Dacon napisał(a):

> Peter, don't let all these naysayers discourage you from the direction
> you're heading. Iain Oughtred's designs and the boats built from them
> are very highly respected in the professional boat building community.
> His and similar boats built from high-quality thin plywood with glued
> laps can be damned fine boats.

Tom,

I will write the rule of "three 'only right ways'" over my desk. Well put
indeed.

Being rather new here, and non-native English speaker, I just avoid
confrontations instead of crossing swords with anybody. Somehow against
my temperament, but very helpful. By no means it means I am getting
discouraged just because of couple sentences.

As for the boat, I did a bit of homework and AFAIK Ness Yawl is a good
boat for my needs. One more thing to clarify: I am not going to build her
with my own hands. There are already three professional builders who made
their bids to me. They have built quite interesting boats before, like a
transatlantic kayak (wood + epoxy + kevlar) or a wooden whalers' dory
that will be cruising Patagonia soon. And none of them had any problem
with the plywood - so for me the issue is settled.

As the plan is to sail my boat around Ionian Sea, I hoped that posting
here my question would trigger some answers from the area closer to Corfu
than Poland (my current place). 1500 km boat transfer by car will be
rather expensive, but well, you can't have everything.

The building is scheduled roughly for February and I will certainly let
you gentlemen know how it goes.

Cheers,

Peter

--
*** no offence meant, no offence taken ***
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

"Tom Dacon" <TomNOSPAM RemoveThis @NOSPAM-dacons.com> wrote in message
news:P8WdnVRbQ4EKcMPVnZ2dnUVZ_rzinZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
> Peter, don't let all these naysayers discourage you from the direction
> you're heading.
> To the naysayers, a good friend of mine, a boat builder himself among a
> vast number of other marine skills - you'd recognize his name if you
> followed traditional sail - says "There are only three 'only right ways'
> to do anything."
>
> Good luck finding a builder in your region,
>
> Tom Dacon
>
> To you others on this thread - how many small boats have you built? Come
> on now, 'fess up.

Hello Tom,
Port Towsend, eh? Close enough to be a neighbour.

....Ken www.classictender.com
>
>
>
> "Akita" <cutlass63 RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:g3lerl$5rj$5@news2.task.gda.pl...
>> Dnia Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:38:47 +0200, Steve Lusardi napisal(a):
>>
>>> I'm afraid you have missed the point. (...) do
>>> not start this project unless you have the resources, dedication and
>>> personal discipline to complete it. (etc., etc.)
>>
>> Good advice is always appreciated. Thank you.
>>
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> --
>> *** no offence meant, no offence taken ***
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders? 

"Island Teak" <islandteak DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:1qP7k.26311$Jx.7414@pd7urf1no...
>
> Hello Tom,
> Port Towsend, eh? Close enough to be a neighbour.

> www.classictender.com

Nice, Ken - very nice indeed. Do you ever come down to the Port Townsend
Wooden Boat Festival? You ought to think about bringing a couple of those
little sweeties down here and showing them.

Tom
 >> Stay informed about: Iain Oughtred's Ness Yawl - professional builders?