Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe?

Kathy D'Errico wrote:
> I have a 16 foot hybrid canoe that I can use solo or tandem. It
> really takes a lot of work paddling solo and I was wondering if
> a kayak paddle would work better for me? or what would better than
> the traditional lightweight paddle?

Kathy:

This was discussed a bit in an earlier thread this in group.
Some took issue with the asthetics of this, others offered
discussion on the relative merits. My experience will only
add more fuel to the fire.

I just returned from a BWCAW (Boundary Waters Canoe Area
Wilderness along the Minnesota/Canadian border - for the
international readers) trip where I carried both a double bladed
kayak paddle and a conventional canoe paddle.

We operated in two modes. In both modes, I was in the stern
and my wife was in the bow.

The first mode I used the traditional paddles and steered from
the stern. In the second mode we swapped roles. I used the
kayak paddle in the stern and my wife paddled/steered from
the from the bow.

First, let me preface this by saying, I love to row. On a raft trip
I will face downstream for 95+ % of the time and just swing my
oars all day. I never really seem to get excessively tired from it.
The same thing seems true when I run a double bladed paddle
in my inflatable kayaks. The IK's are not super low drag, but
again, I seem to be able to swing the blades all day.

Second, I am a complete canoe novice - this being our first
real outing. If different muscle sets are involved in using a
canoe paddle, then for certain, these were not as developed
as those used for rowing/portagee or kayaking.

Third, the kayak paddle used in this test was an old Carlisle
break apart unit that I usually let rookie paddlers use in the
IK. It is heavy, but did provide a mechanism for breaking
apart into two canoe paddles - thus securing us spares
if we needed them.

Fourth: The Canoe was a Wenonah Minnesota II. (18.5 ft)

So early in the trip, I swapped between the canoe paddle
and the kayak paddle about 50% of the time. Perhaps
because I was better at it, I preferred the kayak paddle.

The canoe paddle worked better in the small rivers and
was less likely to catch "Salad" in the weeds. But as
the trip progressed, I found myself using the kayak
paddle exclusively.

I really appreciated it in power situations like open water
crossing of bays in the wind. I was like giving us an
extra paddler. Also apparent was additional stability
from having a blade in the water nearly all of the time
and on both sides. This combined with my ability
to swing the blade continuously really pushed us
across the water.

This approach served us both well. We both really
enjoyed the trip and look forward to our next outing.
I consider myself fortunate that my spouse is willing
to be seen in such an unconventional setting. But it
works for us. And quite well too!

Blakely
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

"The best adventure is yet to come"
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Mothra wrote:
> About the
> only thing you lose is the ability to low brace.

I can't see why. If you're sitting on the bottom of a high-gunneled canoe,
maybe, but if you can low-brace with a canoe paddle, you can low brace with a
kayak paddle.

Oh yeah - if the canoe is really beamy, you'll have quite a reach.

Mike
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Kathy D'Errico wrote:
> I have a 16 foot hybrid canoe that I can use solo or tandem. It
> really takes a lot of work paddling solo and I was wondering if
> a kayak paddle would work better for me? or what would better than
> the traditional lightweight paddle?

The canoe paddle serves as both paddle and rudder. Kayak paddles don't
do the rudder job well. They don't need to because kayak paddlers sit
amidships and on flat water turn by heeling the boat while paddling,
and in white water use radically different hull shapes that turn but
don't hold a straight course as well.

A kayak paddle will allow you to extert more force at the cost of more
effort. It's the same canoe and nothing is free.

A kayak is typically 2 feet wide. A canoe is typically 3 feet wide.
There are small canoes only 2 feet wide and there are open kayaks with
large cockpits which resemble narrow canoes. (Empty canoes paddled solo
should be paddled sitting amidships, heeled over.) In some circles the
point at which a canoe becomes a kayak is determined by the type of
paddle used rather than the shape for the hull. Long. extremely narrow
dugouts on the Amazon are canoes because they are paddled with canoe
paddles. A tiny "wee lassie" style canoe is actually an open kayak if
it is paddled with a kayak paddle.
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Wm Watt wrote:
> >
> > The canoe paddle serves as both paddle and rudder. Kayak paddles don't
> > do the rudder job well.
>
> Why not? It seems to me that a kayak paddle should be easier to use as a
> rudder since you can rudder on either side without having to shift the
> paddle in your hands. Kayakers use various types of rudder strokes all
> the time, though kayaks can also be directed using leans and sweeps
> which are probably more difficult in a canoe.
>
> > A kayak paddle will allow you to extert more force at the cost of more
> > effort. It's the same canoe and nothing is free.
>
> True, but a kayak paddle is more efficient, since there is less time for
> the boat to decelerate between strokes, so you do gain a bit of speed at
> no cost.

On my recent trip/experiment, I found that directional adjustment was
instinctive using either type blade. The only exception to this is
when you crossed modes. It felt awkward and ineffective when you tried
a blade specific stroke using the wrong type of blade. Canoe strokes
did not work well with a kayak paddle. I suspect this is more mental
than physical (a blade is a blade after all - though there are length
and grip differences). The instinctive part just disappeared. With
sufficient practice, perhaps this would resolve itself.

Blakely
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

"The best adventure is yet to come"
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Wm Watt wrote:
> Kathy D'Errico wrote:
>> I have a 16 foot hybrid canoe that I can use solo or tandem. It
>> really takes a lot of work paddling solo and I was wondering if
>> a kayak paddle would work better for me? or what would better than
>> the traditional lightweight paddle?
>
> The canoe paddle serves as both paddle and rudder. Kayak paddles don't
> do the rudder job well.

Why not? It seems to me that a kayak paddle should be easier to use as a
rudder since you can rudder on either side without having to shift the
paddle in your hands. Kayakers use various types of rudder strokes all
the time, though kayaks can also be directed using leans and sweeps
which are probably more difficult in a canoe.

> A kayak paddle will allow you to extert more force at the cost of more
> effort. It's the same canoe and nothing is free.

True, but a kayak paddle is more efficient, since there is less time for
the boat to decelerate between strokes, so you do gain a bit of speed at
no cost.
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I really APPRECIATE IT! As I
canoe mainly on an open bay following the shoreline, I think I will try
the kayak paddle approach. I stopped down to a local kayak store
yesterday and tried out a kayak paddle with a canoe. It seemed to work
fine for me except that the 245cm paddle was a little short. I think a
slightly longer one would do the trick. Blakely-what size kayak paddle
is your Carlisle? As you are sitting in the stern which is narrower,
you are probably able to use a standard size kayak paddle? My problem
is that I am sitting in the midsection going solo, so that the paddle
was slightly short for the mid. Also, do you sit or kneel when using
your kayak paddle? Thank your for your "experiment".
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Brian Nystrom wrote:
> Wm Watt wrote:

> > The canoe paddle serves as both paddle and rudder. Kayak paddles don't
> > do the rudder job well.
>
> Why not? It seems to me that a kayak paddle should be easier to use as a
> rudder since you can rudder on either side without having to shift the
> paddle in your hands. Kayakers use various types of rudder strokes all
> the time, though kayaks can also be directed using leans and sweeps
> which are probably more difficult in a canoe.


Why would you want to "rudder on both sides"?
You only need or want to paddle on both sides in white water or some
other extreme conditions where efficiency is questionable, and when
poling is sometimes better.

>
> > A kayak paddle will allow you to extert more force at the cost of more
> > effort. It's the same canoe and nothing is free.
>
> True, but a kayak paddle is more efficient, since there is less time for
> the boat to decelerate between strokes, so you do gain a bit of speed at
> no cost.

That's only a problem in a short boat. Once a canoe exceeds about 12 ft
in length a moderate paddle stroke will maintain a steady rate of
speed.

- a paddle blade is better formed to act as a rudder

- the handle of a paddle has a grip at the top to facilitate twisting
the blade. Twisting the blade in the water is part of a normal canoe
stroke.

- in a canoe the solo paddler sits amidships like a kayak paddler but
because a canoe is wider the paddler sits to one side where the paddle
can be dipped vertically into the water. For a solo canoe paddler, a
kayak paddle is not as efficient. The canoe is too wide amidships. A
kayak paddle with a sufficiently large blade may be more powerful, but
not more efficient.

For someone who mostly uses a kayak paddle it may feel more efficient
than a canoe paddle but that's because the person is conditioned to a
kayak paddle. I've used both kinds in the small boats I built. The
shortest boat needs a kayak paddle because it does't track well. It's
like one of those short white water kayaks.

I was interested in the account of using a kayak paddle when paddling
double in a canoe. Sitting in the end of the canoe would be narrow
enough to make a kayak paddle practical. I've never tried it but think
it would be interesting. There would still be the problem of the kayak
paddle not acting well as a rudder, but on a straight course it would
be interesting to try. People use bent blade paddles on straight
courses so there is a precedent.
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Kathy D'Errico wrote:
> I have a 16 foot hybrid canoe that I can use solo or tandem. It
> really takes a lot of work paddling solo and I was wondering if
> a kayak paddle would work better for me? or what would better than
> the traditional lightweight paddle?

Do you sit over to one side in the middle of the canoe and kneel on the
bottom?
That's the best position for solo empty canoe paddling. If teh canoe is
full of camping gear then you can sit or kneel behing the weight of the
gear. I don't even put seats in the boats I build fro myself. I carry a
cushion (an old life jacket0 to kneel on. It's painful at first until
the muscles and ligaments or whatever get stretched but eventually you
get used to it. You have to shift position every once and a while to
keep the circulation going in the lower legs so you can stand up at the
end of the day.

After you learn to balance well you can paddle with the gunwhale
touching the surface of the water. The canoe is actually qiute stable
at that degree of heel because of the weight of the hull out of the
water counteracting further heeling. It's nto unlike riding a bicycle.
..
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Kathy D'Errico wrote:
> I have a 16 foot hybrid canoe that I can use solo or tandem. It
> really takes a lot of work paddling solo and I was wondering if
> a kayak paddle would work better for me? or what would better than
> the traditional lightweight paddle?

Do you sit over to one side in the middle of the canoe and kneel on the
bottom?
That's the best position for solo empty canoe paddling. If teh canoe is
full of camping gear then you can sit or kneel behing the weight of the
gear. I don't even put seats in the boats I build fro myself. I carry a
cushion (an old life jacket0 to kneel on. It's painful at first until
the muscles and ligaments or whatever get stretched but eventually you
get used to it. You have to shift position every once and a while to
keep the circulation going in the lower legs so you can stand up at the
end of the day.

After you learn to balance well you can paddle with the gunwhale
touching the surface of the water. The canoe is actually qiute stable
at that degree of heel because of the weight of the hull out of the
water counteracting further heeling. It's not unlike riding a bicycle.
..
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

In article <woodchips-BAD47D.16031219092006.RemoveThis@syrcnyrdrs-02-ge0.nyroc.rr.com>, Kathy D'Errico <woodchips.RemoveThis@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

Thank you everyone for your feedback. I really APPRECIATE IT! As I
canoe mainly on an open bay following the shoreline, I think I will try
the kayak paddle approach. I stopped down to a local kayak store
yesterday and tried out a kayak paddle with a canoe. It seemed to work
fine for me except that the 245cm paddle was a little short. I think a
slightly longer one would do the trick. Blakely-what size kayak paddle
is your Carlisle? As you are sitting in the stern which is narrower,
you are probably able to use a standard size kayak paddle? My problem
is that I am sitting in the midsection going solo, so that the paddle
was slightly short for the mid. Also, do you sit or kneel when using
your kayak paddle? Thank your for your "experiment".

Kathy D'Errico
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Kathy D'Errico wrote:
> In article <woodchips-BAD47D.16031219092006.DeleteThis@syrcnyrdrs-02-ge0.nyroc.rr.com>, Kathy D'Errico <woodchips.DeleteThis@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you everyone for your feedback. I really APPRECIATE IT! As I
> canoe mainly on an open bay following the shoreline, I think I will try
> the kayak paddle approach. I stopped down to a local kayak store
> yesterday and tried out a kayak paddle with a canoe. It seemed to work
> fine for me except that the 245cm paddle was a little short. I think a
> slightly longer one would do the trick. Blakely-what size kayak paddle
> is your Carlisle? As you are sitting in the stern which is narrower,
> you are probably able to use a standard size kayak paddle? My problem
> is that I am sitting in the midsection going solo, so that the paddle
> was slightly short for the mid. Also, do you sit or kneel when using
> your kayak paddle? Thank your for your "experiment".
>
> Kathy D'Errico

Kathy

The Carlisle feels huge. I brought it back with me and will measure it
tomorrow and post. I will post the mid/stern dimensions of the Wenonah

for comparison as well. (These might be on their web site too).

Blakely
---
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

"The best adventure is yet to come"
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Brian Nystrom wrote:

> > Why would you want to "rudder on both sides"?
>
> Why not? You use a rudder stroke on whatever side it most convenient at
> the time. That's SOP in kayaks.

Then it's no advantage as previously claimed?

>
> > You only need or want to paddle on both sides in white water or some
> > other extreme conditions where efficiency is questionable, and when
> > poling is sometimes better.
>
> Why? What's the downside of doing it all the time? I realize that it's
> not traditional to do so in a canoes, but other than that, why would you
> not want to?

We were trying to establish an advantage of one over the other?
You claimed an advantage for being ablt to "ruudder on both sides".
Now the advantage you claimed for steeing on both sides seems to have
disappeared.


> >
> > That's only a problem in a short boat. Once a canoe exceeds about 12 ft
> > in length a moderate paddle stroke will maintain a steady rate of
> > speed.
>
> I beg to differ. Every stroke accelerates the boat and every pause
> allows it to decelerate. If the boat is heavily laden, the changes may
> be quite small, but particularly when paddling a light boat unladen, it
> makes a difference over several hours of paddling.

I have to disagree. A canoe has more momentum.
You have a point though when thewind blows.

Gettin timed out .....

>
> > - a paddle blade is better formed to act as a rudder
>
> We're talking about paddles, aren't we? If you mean a canoe paddle is a
> better shape than a kayak paddle, that would depend on the type of
> paddles you're comparing. For example, I would think that a bent-shaft
> canoe paddle would make a less than ideal rudder and would be less
> effective than a kayak paddle.
>
> > - the handle of a paddle has a grip at the top to facilitate twisting
> > the blade. Twisting the blade in the water is part of a normal canoe
> > stroke.
>
> It works fine with a kayak paddle, too. It doesn't take much twist to
> rudder a boat, nor does the twisting action require much effort.
>
> > - in a canoe the solo paddler sits amidships like a kayak paddler but
> > because a canoe is wider the paddler sits to one side where the paddle
> > can be dipped vertically into the water. For a solo canoe paddler, a
> > kayak paddle is not as efficient. The canoe is too wide amidships. A
> > kayak paddle with a sufficiently large blade may be more powerful, but
> > not more efficient.
>
> I can see where the width of the boat could be problematic, but that can
> be overcome to some degree by using a long enough paddle to easily reach
> the water on both sides.
>
> > For someone who mostly uses a kayak paddle it may feel more efficient
> > than a canoe paddle but that's because the person is conditioned to a
> > kayak paddle. I've used both kinds in the small boats I built. The
> > shortest boat needs a kayak paddle because it does't track well. It's
> > like one of those short white water kayaks.
>
> There's a difference between the inherent efficiency of the paddle
> itself and the efficiency of the boat/paddle combination. The
> alternating stroke of a kayak paddle reduces "dead spots" in the stroke
> as well as the need for a "J" stroke or other technique for compensating
> for paddling on only one side. Any time you add a ruddering component to
> a stroke, it reduces the efficiency of the stroke.
>
> > I was interested in the account of using a kayak paddle when paddling
> > double in a canoe. Sitting in the end of the canoe would be narrow
> > enough to make a kayak paddle practical. I've never tried it but think
> > it would be interesting. There would still be the problem of the kayak
> > paddle not acting well as a rudder, but on a straight course it would
> > be interesting to try. People use bent blade paddles on straight
> > courses so there is a precedent.
>
> Trust me Bill, a kayak paddle works just fine as a rudder; there are
> thousands of years of precedent for that. The extra length of a kayak
> paddle also allows for extended sweep strokes, which are a more
> efficient means of correcting a boat's course than ruddering, as the
> stroke propels the boat forward as it turns it, rather than just
> creating drag as ruddering does.
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe? 

Wm Watt wrote:
> Brian Nystrom wrote:
>> Wm Watt wrote:
>
>>> The canoe paddle serves as both paddle and rudder. Kayak paddles don't
>>> do the rudder job well.
>> Why not? It seems to me that a kayak paddle should be easier to use as a
>> rudder since you can rudder on either side without having to shift the
>> paddle in your hands. Kayakers use various types of rudder strokes all
>> the time, though kayaks can also be directed using leans and sweeps
>> which are probably more difficult in a canoe.
>
>
> Why would you want to "rudder on both sides"?

Why not? You use a rudder stroke on whatever side it most convenient at
the time. That's SOP in kayaks.

> You only need or want to paddle on both sides in white water or some
> other extreme conditions where efficiency is questionable, and when
> poling is sometimes better.

Why? What's the downside of doing it all the time? I realize that it's
not traditional to do so in a canoes, but other than that, why would you
not want to?

>>> A kayak paddle will allow you to extert more force at the cost of more
>>> effort. It's the same canoe and nothing is free.
>> True, but a kayak paddle is more efficient, since there is less time for
>> the boat to decelerate between strokes, so you do gain a bit of speed at
>> no cost.
>
> That's only a problem in a short boat. Once a canoe exceeds about 12 ft
> in length a moderate paddle stroke will maintain a steady rate of
> speed.

I beg to differ. Every stroke accelerates the boat and every pause
allows it to decelerate. If the boat is heavily laden, the changes may
be quite small, but particularly when paddling a light boat unladen, it
makes a difference over several hours of paddling.

> - a paddle blade is better formed to act as a rudder

We're talking about paddles, aren't we? If you mean a canoe paddle is a
better shape than a kayak paddle, that would depend on the type of
paddles you're comparing. For example, I would think that a bent-shaft
canoe paddle would make a less than ideal rudder and would be less
effective than a kayak paddle.

> - the handle of a paddle has a grip at the top to facilitate twisting
> the blade. Twisting the blade in the water is part of a normal canoe
> stroke.

It works fine with a kayak paddle, too. It doesn't take much twist to
rudder a boat, nor does the twisting action require much effort.

> - in a canoe the solo paddler sits amidships like a kayak paddler but
> because a canoe is wider the paddler sits to one side where the paddle
> can be dipped vertically into the water. For a solo canoe paddler, a
> kayak paddle is not as efficient. The canoe is too wide amidships. A
> kayak paddle with a sufficiently large blade may be more powerful, but
> not more efficient.

I can see where the width of the boat could be problematic, but that can
be overcome to some degree by using a long enough paddle to easily reach
the water on both sides.

> For someone who mostly uses a kayak paddle it may feel more efficient
> than a canoe paddle but that's because the person is conditioned to a
> kayak paddle. I've used both kinds in the small boats I built. The
> shortest boat needs a kayak paddle because it does't track well. It's
> like one of those short white water kayaks.

There's a difference between the inherent efficiency of the paddle
itself and the efficiency of the boat/paddle combination. The
alternating stroke of a kayak paddle reduces "dead spots" in the stroke
as well as the need for a "J" stroke or other technique for compensating
for paddling on only one side. Any time you add a ruddering component to
a stroke, it reduces the efficiency of the stroke.

> I was interested in the account of using a kayak paddle when paddling
> double in a canoe. Sitting in the end of the canoe would be narrow
> enough to make a kayak paddle practical. I've never tried it but think
> it would be interesting. There would still be the problem of the kayak
> paddle not acting well as a rudder, but on a straight course it would
> be interesting to try. People use bent blade paddles on straight
> courses so there is a precedent.

Trust me Bill, a kayak paddle works just fine as a rudder; there are
thousands of years of precedent for that. The extra length of a kayak
paddle also allows for extended sweep strokes, which are a more
efficient means of correcting a boat's course than ruddering, as the
stroke propels the boat forward as it turns it, rather than just
creating drag as ruddering does.
 >> Stay informed about: Kayak paddle efficient for a canoe?