Need Laminate Advice

On May 31, 1:22 am, justwaitafrekinmin... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
> On May 30, 11:22 pm, Bruce <brucepa... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 30 May 2007 19:52:36 -0700, justwaitafrekinmin... RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:
>
> > >I am determined to have smooth lines on the small Whaler clone I am
> > >thinking of building. If I were to carve the shape of the outside hull
> > >into foam, and then laminate an outside skin in it with resin and
> > >glass, what kind of layup would I use, how many layers, what material?
> > >Any guidelines or educated guesses, tia.
>
> > Be a bit more specific.
>
> > Do you mean make a mold from foam, laying up a fiberglass skin and
> > then removing it from the mold?, or
>
> > make a foam boat, for want of a better word, and sheath it, inside and
> > out, with fiberglass?
>
> > To calculate thickness of fiberglass you will need to specify the
> > length and breadth of the hull, how many and where any reinforcement
> > will be located, the intended use of the boat, anticipated life of the
> > boat, and probably a number of other specializations that I didn't
> > mention. Not a trivial task.
>
> > Bruce in Bangkok
> > (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)
>
> > --
> > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
>
> Here is a link to the boat I want to use as a starting point. I would
> probably be looking to make my hull very similar to this boat, size,
> length, etc.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/13-Boston-Whaler-Sport_W0QQcmdZViewIte...
> I hope the link works. If not, and if you wish you can go to ebay,
> type in "Boston Whaler" and look at any of the several 13" Sport
> models that show up. I would probably build a flatbottom skimmer type
> vehicle and then use foam to build up the tri hulls. I could but
> bulkheads in the forms every 12-18 inches and then cover with laminate
> of some sort to form a skin. I would leave the foam in the hull, the
> floor would be flat and come up in the bow like a scow as is the case
> in these whalers too. I imagine they leave the foam in there too. So I
> need a laminated skin that would need to support itself over the foam
> in maybe 12 X 18 inch surfaces. The tri hulls would be made in this
> manner, everything above the floor including the sides and transom,
> floor etc, would be made in traditional (heh, seems funny calling S+T
> traditional) stitch and tape with Ocoume plywood, resin and cloth.
> Thanks for your interest, hope this gives you enough info to get me
> pointed in the right direction. I know some of the kayak guys use
> methods like this, and I do remember one "bullet proof boat" a few
> years back, think it was this group.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Nobody at all? Just need to be pointed in the right direction as to
what materials I need to make a fiberglass skin on a foam. As to
thicknesses and number of laminates I will do the testing, but do I
use biaxial, roving, mat, cloth all or some of the above? I will be
using epoxy as a resin because of the foam blocks I will be starting
off with. Thanks again in advance.
 >> Stay informed about: Need Laminate Advice 

On 30 May 2007 19:52:36 -0700, justwaitafrekinminute RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote:

>I am determined to have smooth lines on the small Whaler clone I am
>thinking of building. If I were to carve the shape of the outside hull
>into foam, and then laminate an outside skin in it with resin and
>glass, what kind of layup would I use, how many layers, what material?
>Any guidelines or educated guesses, tia.

Be a bit more specific.

Do you mean make a mold from foam, laying up a fiberglass skin and
then removing it from the mold?, or

make a foam boat, for want of a better word, and sheath it, inside and
out, with fiberglass?

To calculate thickness of fiberglass you will need to specify the
length and breadth of the hull, how many and where any reinforcement
will be located, the intended use of the boat, anticipated life of the
boat, and probably a number of other specializations that I didn't
mention. Not a trivial task.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 >> Stay informed about: Need Laminate Advice 

See:

http://www.quigs.org/Foamee/index.html

or

http://www.glen-l.com/methods/mthdfg01.html

for general ideas on one-off foam sandwitch construction.

MW
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On May 31, 8:29 pm, mike.e.worr....DeleteThis@abc.com wrote:
> See:
>
> http://www.quigs.org/Foamee/index.html
>
> or
>
> http://www.glen-l.com/methods/mthdfg01.html
>
> for general ideas on one-off foam sandwitch construction.
>
> MW

Thank you, that is just what I needed..
 >> Stay informed about: Need Laminate Advice 

On 30 May 2007 22:22:16 -0700, justwaitafrekinminute.DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:

>On May 30, 11:22 pm, Bruce <brucepa....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 30 May 2007 19:52:36 -0700, justwaitafrekinmin....DeleteThis@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >I am determined to have smooth lines on the small Whaler clone I am
>> >thinking of building. If I were to carve the shape of the outside hull
>> >into foam, and then laminate an outside skin in it with resin and
>> >glass, what kind of layup would I use, how many layers, what material?
>> >Any guidelines or educated guesses, tia.
>>
>> Be a bit more specific.
>>
>> Do you mean make a mold from foam, laying up a fiberglass skin and
>> then removing it from the mold?, or
>>
>> make a foam boat, for want of a better word, and sheath it, inside and
>> out, with fiberglass?
>>
>> To calculate thickness of fiberglass you will need to specify the
>> length and breadth of the hull, how many and where any reinforcement
>> will be located, the intended use of the boat, anticipated life of the
>> boat, and probably a number of other specializations that I didn't
>> mention. Not a trivial task.
>>
>> Bruce in Bangkok
>> (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)
>>
>> --
>> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com
>
>Here is a link to the boat I want to use as a starting point. I would
>probably be looking to make my hull very similar to this boat, size,
>length, etc.
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/13-Boston-Whaler-Sport_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ31270QQihZ015QQitemZ250120493171QQrdZ1
>I hope the link works. If not, and if you wish you can go to ebay,
>type in "Boston Whaler" and look at any of the several 13" Sport
>models that show up. I would probably build a flatbottom skimmer type
>vehicle and then use foam to build up the tri hulls. I could but
>bulkheads in the forms every 12-18 inches and then cover with laminate
>of some sort to form a skin. I would leave the foam in the hull, the
>floor would be flat and come up in the bow like a scow as is the case
>in these whalers too. I imagine they leave the foam in there too. So I
>need a laminated skin that would need to support itself over the foam
>in maybe 12 X 18 inch surfaces. The tri hulls would be made in this
>manner, everything above the floor including the sides and transom,
>floor etc, would be made in traditional (heh, seems funny calling S+T
>traditional) stitch and tape with Ocoume plywood, resin and cloth.
>Thanks for your interest, hope this gives you enough info to get me
>pointed in the right direction. I know some of the kayak guys use
>methods like this, and I do remember one "bullet proof boat" a few
>years back, think it was this group.


I suggest that you have a look at
http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/13/
Much better information about the Whaler 13.

Down toward the bottom of the page there is a picture of a whaler with
the stern cut off to show the construction which appears to be
essentially a foam boat with inner and outer skins.

First of all I think you are starting on a much more complicated job
then you realize but having said that here is the way I'd do it.

First you need to design the boat and loft it, full size if possible.
This lets you plan things like transitions between thicker and thinner
layers of glass cloth, reinforcing wood inlays, etc., accurately.

Next, build the "upper hull" which would be a flat bottomed structure
consisting of the "floor" and top sides of the boat. This could be a
stitch and tape structure.

Turn the upper hull over and shape and glue foam blocks to the hull
and fair to the shape you want. You do not need bulkheads.

You will, of course, need to incorporate a solid transom to mount your
engine and build in strong points, where needed, from solid wood, to
mount whatever...

Once every thing is completed the entire hull is covered inside and
outside using glass cloth and epoxy resin.

Several things you should be thinking about:

As the topsides are fairly thin plywood and the base/keel is a thick
foam sandwich the top sides may be more flexible then you want. You
may have to inlet "ribs into the foam bottom that reach to the top of
the sides to stiffen them.

You DO want to use closed cell foam for your construction. Invariably
these foam composite structures get damaged. If you do not use closed
cell foam and you get a crack or hole below the water line your hull
will absorb an amazing amount of water.

You DO want to use epoxy resin and glass cloth that is designed for
epoxy. It is possible to build a composite structure like this with
polyester resin but you would definitely need to take more pains in
order to have a solid structure. But, of course, the polyester resin
is much cheaper then the epoxy.

Be sure that your foam is compatible with the resin you plan to use.

In real life, whether you use chopped mat or woven cloth is pretty
much immaterial but the chopped mat will take more filler to fair the
boat.

Here in Thailand we use Grams/M2 and my figures for Ounces/Yd2 are
estimates. I would probably cover the bottom with about 1/8 inch of
glass, something like 2400 Gm/M2, about 72 Oz/Yd2 and the plywood
structure with about half that. These are estimates only and might
well be changed as the building progresses.

You will have to make a transition between the thicker glass on the
lower part of the hull and the thinner on the plywood by tapering the
foam on the lower part of the hull.

About all I've done is "hit the high places" but it may give you an
idea of what you are getting in to.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 >> Stay informed about: Need Laminate Advice 

justwaitafrekinminute.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:

> Nobody at all? Just need to be pointed in the right direction as to
> what materials I need to make a fiberglass skin on a foam. As to
> thicknesses and number of laminates I will do the testing, but do I
> use biaxial, roving, mat, cloth all or some of the above? I will be
> using epoxy as a resin because of the foam blocks I will be starting
> off with. Thanks again in advance.

I don't know much about it, but Dave Gerr's book on Boat Strength has the
necessary infromation. His scantlings may not apply directly to canoes, but
should give you a good starting point.

-H
 >> Stay informed about: Need Laminate Advice 

On May 31, 11:12 pm, Bruce <brucepa....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I suggest that you have a look athttp://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/13/
> Much better information about the Whaler 13.
>
> Down toward the bottom of the page there is a picture of a whaler with
> the stern cut off to show the construction which appears to be
> essentially a foam boat with inner and outer skins.
>
> First of all I think you are starting on a much more complicated job
> then you realize but having said that here is the way I'd do it.

I have built, lofted and spiled a few wood and wood and glass boats, I
don't think to much of it will surprise me labor wise, I am pretty
good with epoxy and glass, and I have plenty of time to do the
project.
>
> First you need to design the boat and loft it, full size if possible.
> This lets you plan things like transitions between thicker and thinner
> layers of glass cloth, reinforcing wood inlays, etc., accurately.
>
> Next, build the "upper hull" which would be a flat bottomed structure
> consisting of the "floor" and top sides of the boat. This could be a
> stitch and tape structure.
>
> Turn the upper hull over and shape and glue foam blocks to the hull
> and fair to the shape you want. You do not need bulkheads.
>
> You will, of course, need to incorporate a solid transom to mount your
> engine and build in strong points, where needed, from solid wood, to
> mount whatever...
>
> Once every thing is completed the entire hull is covered inside and
> outside using glass cloth and epoxy resin.

I will probably loft it out as I go, I am leaning toward a ply on
frame build the whole length of the boat, may use foam and glass to
make some pretty transititions between plywood panels. I have been
studying the many pics I have of the hull I want (13 foot whaler
sport) and I see 4 fairly defined planes that could be used, a little
smoothing inbetween strakes would make it possible to get a lot of the
nice form of the underside of the hull of the whaler. But I do see 4
panels. I am going to start on a scale half hull and see what I can
come up with.
>
> Several things you should be thinking about:
>
> As the topsides are fairly thin plywood and the base/keel is a thick
> foam sandwich the top sides may be more flexible then you want. You
> may have to inlet "ribs into the foam bottom that reach to the top of
> the sides to stiffen them.

I would probably build wood into the hull at the transom and up the
seams to the bow, also I would build the boat around two or more
pretty good stringers that would tie into the transom, I have always
had a tendency to overengineer things
>
> You DO want to use closed cell foam for your construction. Invariably
> these foam composite structures get damaged. If you do not use closed
> cell foam and you get a crack or hole below the water line your hull
> will absorb an amazing amount of water.

Great point, I may not be using as much (if any) foam as I origionally
thought, If I do I will bet something like Divenacell (sp?) or
something similar.

>
> You DO want to use epoxy resin and glass cloth that is designed for
> epoxy. It is possible to build a composite structure like this with
> polyester resin but you would definitely need to take more pains in
> order to have a solid structure. But, of course, the polyester resin
> is much cheaper then the epoxy.

I always build with Epoxy and glass,( I am not skeered of a little
money ), most of my construction experience has been with resin as
a filler for glass or strictly as an adhesive, glass to wood, glass to
glass. I have no experience however laminating structurally critical
"skins" over foam, that is my biggest question which I think you have
addressed below.

> Be sure that your foam is compatible with the resin you plan to use.

Yes, and my glass too.
>
> In real life, whether you use chopped mat or woven cloth is pretty
> much immaterial but the chopped mat will take more filler to fair the
> boat.
>
> Here in Thailand we use Grams/M2 and my figures for Ounces/Yd2 are
> estimates. I would probably cover the bottom with about 1/8 inch of
> glass, something like 2400 Gm/M2, about 72 Oz/Yd2 and the plywood
> structure with about half that. These are estimates only and might
> well be changed as the building progresses.

Sounds like I can go with just cloth? I will get some heavier cloth
and do some tests, mabey two to three layers and see if it is enough,
thanks.

>
> You will have to make a transition between the thicker glass on the
> lower part of the hull and the thinner on the plywood by tapering the
> foam on the lower part of the hull.

I have done enough glass work I kind of see that in advance and make
arrangements in advance, while forming the parts, I don't think I will
have a big problem there.
>
> About all I've done is "hit the high places" but it may give you an
> idea of what you are getting in to.

You have been more than helpful, I think I have a real direction to go
now. I did not really want to use mat, I was hoping there was a
possibliliy I could go with fabric and it sounds like I may be able
to. Also since I first posted I have been looking real hard at that
hull, I think it can be done, Thanks again everyone, I will keep you
posted.
>
> Bruce in Bangkok
> (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
 >> Stay informed about: Need Laminate Advice 

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:13:53 -0700, justwaitafrekinminute RemoveThis @gmail.com
wrote:

>On May 31, 11:12 pm, Bruce <brucepa... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I suggest that you have a look athttp://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/13/
>> Much better information about the Whaler 13.
>>
>> Down toward the bottom of the page there is a picture of a whaler with
>> the stern cut off to show the construction which appears to be
>> essentially a foam boat with inner and outer skins.
>>
>> First of all I think you are starting on a much more complicated job
>> then you realize but having said that here is the way I'd do it.
>
>I have built, lofted and spiled a few wood and wood and glass boats, I
>don't think to much of it will surprise me labor wise, I am pretty
>good with epoxy and glass, and I have plenty of time to do the
>project.
Snipped a bunch


I had sort of assumed from your question that you had not built a lot
=:-{

If you have any software for boat design (something like HULLS) it is
easy to design a new hull and develop offsets. With that you should be
able to loft the hull so it would be easy to come up with a whaler
look alike.

Just casual looking at a Whaler it looks as though one could build it
out of plywood or perhaps use just a bit of foam if the ply got too
tortured but essentially I suspect that you could build it as a
plywood boat rancher then a foam/ply boat and depending on the
thickness of the ply you probably wouldn't need very thick glass. But
if you are covering foam try to use a bit thicker because it really
doesn't stand up to punctures very well.


Bruce in Bangkok
(brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 >> Stay informed about: Need Laminate Advice 

On Jun 3, 3:36 am, Bruce <brucepa....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 18:13:53 -0700, justwaitafrekinmin....DeleteThis@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On May 31, 11:12 pm, Bruce <brucepa....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I suggest that you have a look athttp://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/13/
> >> Much better information about the Whaler 13.
>
> >> Down toward the bottom of the page there is a picture of a whaler with
> >> the stern cut off to show the construction which appears to be
> >> essentially a foam boat with inner and outer skins.
>
> >> First of all I think you are starting on a much more complicated job
> >> then you realize but having said that here is the way I'd do it.
>
> >I have built, lofted and spiled a few wood and wood and glass boats, I
> >don't think to much of it will surprise me labor wise, I am pretty
> >good with epoxy and glass, and I have plenty of time to do the
> >project.
>
> Snipped a bunch
>
> I had sort of assumed from your question that you had not built a lot
> =:-{
>
> If you have any software for boat design (something like HULLS) it is
> easy to design a new hull and develop offsets. With that you should be
> able to loft the hull so it would be easy to come up with a whaler
> look alike.
>
> Just casual looking at a Whaler it looks as though one could build it
> out of plywood or perhaps use just a bit of foam if the ply got too
> tortured but essentially I suspect that you could build it as a
> plywood boat rancher then a foam/ply boat and depending on the
> thickness of the ply you probably wouldn't need very thick glass. But
> if you are covering foam try to use a bit thicker because it really
> doesn't stand up to punctures very well.
>
> Bruce in Bangkok
> (brucepaigeatgmaildotcom)
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Please don't take me wrong, I did not mention my experience as I was
coming here for informaiton on laminating wihich I know little about
and did not want to come off as some snot nosed kid. Your
informaiton was perfect and convinced me to go ahead and loft out a
hull of plywood instead of fooling with the foam. I spent a day or two
with the Carlson program and I have something here I think is not only
beautiful, but do-able in ply too. If anyone is interested I can
provide more information. I had never seen a decent ply knockoff of a
Whaler before, but I think I got a nice hull here to build. I will
keep you all posted.
 >> Stay informed about: Need Laminate Advice