Paddle problem time

See ATs website
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.atpaddles.com" target="_blank">www.atpaddles.com</a>

At 6'2", according to their sizing chart, you are betwix and between a
197 and 200 cm for the AT4 River.

Some possibilities:
1) grip is in the wrong place
2) grip is too hard
3) blade angle / grip angle not right / unaccustomed for you.

The grip area is not right where the shaft goes into the paddle... it
is up on the deflected bit - in between the blade neck and the main
straight part of the paddle.

I have found with some AT paddles that the shaft is kind of slick -
waxing up the grip area with some surfboard wax helps make the grip
tackier - which means that you don't have to grip it so hard. The
forearm is what pumps out when you grip too tightly.

And, it could be that, for your anatomy, AT's bent shaft design just
isn't right for you. Bent shafts are basically designed to allieviate
stress in the wrists - if you don't have any kind of history of RSI
type pain in the wrists - then there isn't much reason to go with an
ergo paddle.

I notice with an ergo paddle that some braces (skulling low, can't
recall if it is on the control or the off side) is actually harder to
do with an ergo paddle than with a straight shaft paddle.

The blade area could possibly be getting to you... the AT4 River has a
large blade (800 cm2). the largest (along with the ATX series) of all
of their blades. Sometimes blade area can cause joint stress, esp.
with a fairly stiff (carbon) shaft.

good luck... try the wax as a cheap mitigation attempt.

Ted

On 02 Jul 2004 19:32:41 GMT, wildh2pro.RemoveThis@aol.com (WILDH2PRO) wrote:

 >Please help! It's like this: I finally go to a bent shaft (an AT4 River)
 >design after 6+ years of using straight shaft kayak paddles and find myself on
 >Virginia's Whitetop Laurel (a personal first 'D'!) after extensive rains last
 >Saturday. Somewhere about halfway through the 13-mile run--a fine choice for
 >an inaugural run with my new paddle, I might add, or so I thought--I began
 >feeling a pronounced pain in my right (power side) elbow, concentrating towards
 >the outside of it. Next morning the pain was so intense I had to lay off of
 >paddling--ARGGGHH! Vitamin "I" didn't even help, and {unfortunately} there
 >were no more potent pharmaceticals available. Day after, I paddled the
 >Nolichucky and by the time I took off my elbow had swollen to about the size of
 >a tennis ball! I THOUGHT I was gripping it correctly, basically where the
 >shaft enters the first arm of the "V"...is this wrong? Didn't run into any
 >trouble on either rivers, didn't hit it on any rocks--what gives? It's a 200cm
 >paddle but I am 6'4" with fairly long arms...could the paddle still be too
 >long? Over the years I've actually been steadily shortening my paddle lengths,
 >I started up around 206cm!! Maybe it's time to go with a 196 or 198?? Any
 >suggestions are appreciated (and DON'T say "give up paddling", pleeeze!)
 >
 >Jeff Oxley
 >Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
 >Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

Thanks Frank for the attempt...not much help to me here on this side of the big
pond, though, I'm afraid. Brasca? Lettmann? Not familiar with those brands
over here, and I'm unlikely to make the effort to purchase one...would rather
find out what it is I'm doing wrong witht the AT4 I already have! Anyone have
any other possibilities for solutions? I remember a time when technical
inquiries on RBP were answered with a plethora of (often differing) viewpoints
that the inquiree (that's me) could select or reject as valid or not...anybody
else listening?


Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

Sorry it did not help - it was published to assist the youngsters who
attended a coaching day at a regatta last year. One of the GB coaches
gave a talk to parents and when the website was set up earlier this
year the information was published for their benefit. All the kids
who have access to email subscribe and get a regular newsletter.
May get some results if you put the same query on UK rec boats site.
I suspect that one problem is that you have gone straight in with them.
I have tonight purchased a new set of paddles for my grandaughter and
she will spend several sessions getting used to them before she races.
This will entail sessions with one of our coaching team working with her
and the others who have purchased them. One point that was made at the
coaching day was that many people paddle with what they are given and
that is why so many have difficulties. There is a science to picking
the correct paddle. Will do some research and post a link if I find
anything that may be of help. Meantime I would suggest you revert back
to your old ones for now and enjoy your paddling.

Frank Healy




--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

Thanks for the replies, Frank and Theodore. Until I figure out what's going on
I've gone back to my straight shaft Werner Freestyle--only prob is, it's
cracked about half way around the circumference, which relegates me to only the
relatively easier rivers (wouldn't want to have my paddle break on a class 4-5
wilderness run!). Thanks again!

Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

(ORIGINAL POST AT BOTTOM)

Another possibility: I visited AT's web site and read with horror Jimmy
Blakeney's product revue of the AT2--in the last paragraph he states:

"So, the two biggest reasons I like this paddle are its comfort/grip (combined
w/the known benefit of a bentshaft) and its smooth feel in the water and quick
stroke rate. It feels very balanced from the moment you pick it up, just make
sure your holding it the right way (low volume part of blade on the bottom). As

I've said before, any decent paddle will work, but the differences are in the
details, sometimes very important details."

So, according to that (very credible) source, I've been using the paddle upside
down?! I've been paddling with the higher area half of the blade (assuming the
ridge where the shaft combines with the blade is the dividing point between the
two) facing down, just like my last paddle, a similarly asymetric Werner
Freestyle! Granted, the review is for the AT2, not the AT4, but I would have
to imagine the designs are similar enough to employ the same paddling style.

Any of you AT paddlers out ther care to weigh in on which side of the blade
goes down? Haven't paddled for a week, and even so, whatever I'd done to my
elbow doesn't seem to be getting any better. No paddling for me for a while, it
looks like...waaaaa!

ORIGINAL POST:
Please help! It's like this: I finally go to a bent shaft (an AT4 River)
design after 6+ years of using straight shaft kayak paddles and find myself on
Virginia's Whitetop Laurel (a personal first 'D'!) after extensive rains last
Saturday. Somewhere about halfway through the 13-mile run--a fine choice for
an inaugural run with my new paddle, I might add, or so I thought--I began
feeling a pronounced pain in my right (power side) elbow, concentrating towards
the outside of it. Next morning the pain was so intense I had to lay off of
paddling--ARGGGHH! Vitamin "I" didn't even help, and {unfortunately} there
were no more potent pharmaceticals available. Day after, I paddled the
Nolichucky and by the time I took off my elbow had swollen to about the size of
a tennis ball! I THOUGHT I was gripping it correctly, basically where the
shaft enters the first arm of the "V"...is this wrong? Didn't run into any
trouble on either rivers, didn't hit it on any rocks--what gives? It's a 200cm
paddle but I am 6'4" with fairly long arms...could the paddle still be too
long? Over the years I've actually been steadily shortening my paddle lengths,
I started up around 206cm!! Maybe it's time to go with a 196 or 198?? Any
suggestions are appreciated (and DON'T say "give up paddling", pleeeze!)


Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

WILDH2PRO wrote:
 > (ORIGINAL POST AT BOTTOM)
 >
....stuff deleted

 > So, according to that (very credible) source, I've been using the paddle upside
 > down?! I've been paddling with the higher area half of the blade (assuming the
 > ridge where the shaft combines with the blade is the dividing point between the
 > two) facing down, just like my last paddle, a similarly asymetric Werner
 > Freestyle! Granted, the review is for the AT2, not the AT4, but I would have
 > to imagine the designs are similar enough to employ the same paddling style.
 >
 > Any of you AT paddlers out ther care to weigh in on which side of the blade
 > goes down? Haven't paddled for a week, and even so, whatever I'd done to my
 > elbow doesn't seem to be getting any better. No paddling for me for a while, it
 > looks like...waaaaa!

....stuff deleted

Most paddles I've seen are to be used with the smallest blade surface
down. The reason for this is that you don't need a lot of paddle in the
water to propel a boat. I'm still using the original paddles I purchased
years ago and I find that I put no more than 1/2 the blade in the water
at a time and could easily go to a paddle that uses considerably less
blade. Swimmers (world class freestylers), for example, propel
themselves at close to 5 MPH using a paddle the size of, oh my, your
hand. When training with paddles on their hands, they tend to get
tendonitis due to the excess stress.

Now a boat is considerably larger, but WW paddlers routinely roll their
boat using their hands as well. How much blade is necessary is probably
considerably less than what most of us think. I have taken my son's
shorter, narrower, blade out and found that I liked the response. I tire
less quickly, use less muscle, and have greater turnover (more
revolutions per minute). This is consistent with what is observed in
similar power sports (such as cycling) where a faster cadence and lower
gearing results in a more satisfying and comfortable expenditure of
energy, even though it seems less efficient. Cyclists used to recommend
an RPM of 60-80, but modern thinking puts a comfortable cadence between
80-100, with 120 seen in some individuals. I prefer a cadence of 90-95
and find that I am working too hard at lower cadences.

The end result, however, is the same. It takes X amount of energy to
move a particular hull 1 mile. You can do this with a fat, long paddle,
or a short, skinny one. The number of calories expended is virtually
identical. It comes down to which is more comfortable for the paddler
and which leads to a reduction of stresses on the anatomy.

Rick<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

Rick wrote:

 > WILDH2PRO wrote:
 >
 > ...stuff deleted
 >
  >> So, according to that (very credible) source, I've been using the
  >> paddle upside down?! I've been paddling with the higher area half
  >> of the blade (assuming the ridge where the shaft combines with the
  >> blade is the dividing point between the two) facing down, just like
  >> my last paddle, a similarly asymetric Werner Freestyle! Granted,
  >> the review is for the AT2, not the AT4, but I would have to imagine
  >> the designs are similar enough to employ the same paddling style.
 >
 > ...stuff deleted
 >
 > Most paddles I've seen are to be used with the smallest blade surface
 > down.

That's true, but...

  > The reason for this is that you don't need a lot of paddle in
  > the water to propel a boat.

....that's not the reason. If the issue were simply size, then why not
just use a smaller blade? The reason asymmetic paddles are asymmetric is
the the paddle is usually inserted at some diagonal angle to the water.
If the paddle is symmetric around the shaft line, you have more paddle
in the water below and less above, causing twist. The asymmetry tries to
compensate for that. If you use an asymm paddle upside down (ie, the
longer edge of the blade down), you create more, not less, twist,
thereby requiring a tighter grip on the paddle, thereby mucking up your
tendons.

Didn't you think it was odd that the AT logos were upside down? Or maybe
it didn't have any. Look at the images on the AT site to see proper
orientation. <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.atpaddle.com/WhitewaterGateway.html" target="_blank">http://www.atpaddle.com/WhitewaterGateway.html</a>

Hope your arms get well soon. Don't rush it.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

....stuff deleted
 >
 > That's true, but...
 >
  > > The reason for this is that you don't need a lot of paddle in
  > > the water to propel a boat.
 >
 > ...that's not the reason. If the issue were simply size, then why not
 > just use a smaller blade? The reason asymmetic paddles are asymmetric is
 > the the paddle is usually inserted at some diagonal angle to the water.
 > If the paddle is symmetric around the shaft line, you have more paddle
 > in the water below and less above, causing twist. The asymmetry tries to
 > compensate for that. If you use an asymm paddle upside down (ie, the
 > longer edge of the blade down), you create more, not less, twist,
 > thereby requiring a tighter grip on the paddle, thereby mucking up your
 > tendons.
 >

I was not commenting on whether asymmetry will, as you say, reduce
turbulance, vibration, and cavitation. What I was saying was that you
don't need a lot of blade to propel a boat and that placing the wider
edge into the water will tend to result in excess work and stress for
the paddler (the blade, be it small or large, will only move a few
fractions of an inch when pulled against). Since we were discussing the
injury here, I was pointing out that the load of an inverted paddle may
result in undue stress on the paddler.

Rick<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

Rick wrote:
 > ...stuff deleted
  >>
  >> That's true, but...
  >>
   >> > The reason for this is that you don't need a lot of paddle in
   >> > the water to propel a boat.
  >>
  >> ...that's not the reason. If the issue were simply size, then why not
  >> just use a smaller blade? The reason asymmetic paddles are asymmetric
  >> is the the paddle is usually inserted at some diagonal angle to the
  >> water. If the paddle is symmetric around the shaft line, you have more
  >> paddle in the water below and less above, causing twist. The asymmetry
  >> tries to compensate for that. If you use an asymm paddle upside down
  >> (ie, the longer edge of the blade down), you create more, not less,
  >> twist, thereby requiring a tighter grip on the paddle, thereby mucking
  >> up your tendons.
  >>
 > I was not commenting on whether asymmetry will, as you say, reduce
 > turbulance, vibration, and cavitation. What I was saying was that you
 > don't need a lot of blade to propel a boat and that placing the wider
 > edge into the water will tend to result in excess work and stress for
 > the paddler (the blade, be it small or large, will only move a few
 > fractions of an inch when pulled against). Since we were discussing the
 > injury here, I was pointing out that the load of an inverted paddle may
 > result in undue stress on the paddler.

I said nothing about "turbulance, vibration, and cavitation", just
torque (i.e., twist). BTW, paddles don't cavitate, they ventilate,
(http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Design/Paddlework.html), but that's not
the point here. Yes, you don't need a wide blade to propel a boat. The
Greenlanders proved that over 2000 years ago. But I still don't follow
your point. Would you say it isn't good to totally immerse the blade? Or
that everyone should use narrow blades?

Perhaps you've never heard the arguments in favor of asymm paddles. Have
a look here for a nice explanation:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.getoutcanoeing.co.uk/acatalog/canoeingArticles/detail_item_list.asp?ID=10&presentcat=Main%20Article%20Category&page=1" target="_blank">http://www.getoutcanoeing.co.uk/acatalog/canoeingArticles/detail_item_...t.asp?I</a>

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

Steve Cramer wrote:
....stuff deleted
   >>>
  >> I was not commenting on whether asymmetry will, as you say, reduce
  >> turbulance, vibration, and cavitation. What I was saying was that you
  >> don't need a lot of blade to propel a boat and that placing the wider
  >> edge into the water will tend to result in excess work and stress for
  >> the paddler (the blade, be it small or large, will only move a few
  >> fractions of an inch when pulled against). Since we were discussing
  >> the injury here, I was pointing out that the load of an inverted
  >> paddle may result in undue stress on the paddler.
 >
 >
 > I said nothing about "turbulance, vibration, and cavitation", just
 > torque (i.e., twist). BTW, paddles don't cavitate, they ventilate,
 > (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Design/Paddlework.html), but that's not
 > the point here. Yes, you don't need a wide blade to propel a boat. The
 > Greenlanders proved that over 2000 years ago. But I still don't follow
 > your point. Would you say it isn't good to totally immerse the blade? Or
 > that everyone should use narrow blades?

What is written on the site in reference to cavitation vs. ventilation
is as follows:
"Neither is any good, but what your average kayaker creates is ventilation."

My paddle cavitates when I pull hard. It goes in clean, takes no air
down with it, and it generates air bubbles on the low pressure side of
the blade, which is, by definition, cavitation (cavitation is not
limited to propeller blades, but occurs much more frequently due to the
intense pressures the blade places on the water). If I pull really hard,
the vortices on the blade will suck air down toward the paddle, creating
ventilation. This is tremendously inefficient and causes "slippage," as
referred to on the website you cited.

But that, again, isn't the point. Torque isn't the issue here. Paddles
do not generally twist in use. While there may be unbalanced pressure on
various points of the blade, the shaft should not torque on a
well-designed blade, regardless of symmetry.

What I am discussing has little to do with the symmetry of the paddle,
but upon the stresses which cause injury to paddlers. Too much blade
can, and does, cause injury. Using an asymmetric blade upside down puts
the more blade into the water, thus putting more pressure on the
paddler. Whether or not this causes injury is a function of how tightly
the paddler holds the blade and how much stress the lever (paddle)
directs to the joints where tendons meet bone.

 >
 > Perhaps you've never heard the arguments in favor of asymm paddles. Have
 > a look here for a nice explanation:
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.getoutcanoeing.co.uk/acatalog/canoeingArticles/detail_item_list.asp?ID=10&presentcat=Main%20Article%20Category&page=1" target="_blank">http://www.getoutcanoeing.co.uk/acatalog/canoeingArticles/detail_item_...t.asp?I</a>
 >
 >

I use an asymmetrical paddle and know why. We are discussing two
different things here. More blade = more stress on paddler. Longer shaft
also translates to more stress on paddler, but there are points of
diminishing returns on that. A shorter shaft with a higher cadence
produces fewer injuries than a long shaft. If the shaft is too short,
however, a great amount of efficiency is lost.

A large blade combined with a long shaft can cause injury more quickly
than a narrow blade (though my understanding is that the shaft length is
the bigger issue).

Rick<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

Rick wrote:
 > Steve Cramer wrote:
 > ...stuff deleted
 >
   >>> I was not commenting on whether asymmetry will, as you say, reduce
   >>> turbulance, vibration, and cavitation. What I was saying was that you
   >>> don't need a lot of blade to propel a boat and that placing the wider
   >>> edge into the water will tend to result in excess work and stress for
   >>> the paddler (the blade, be it small or large, will only move a few
   >>> fractions of an inch when pulled against). Since we were discussing
   >>> the injury here, I was pointing out that the load of an inverted
   >>> paddle may result in undue stress on the paddler.
  >>
  >> I said nothing about "turbulance, vibration, and cavitation", just
  >> torque (i.e., twist). BTW, paddles don't cavitate, they ventilate,
  >> (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Design/Paddlework.html), but that's
  >> not the point here. Yes, you don't need a wide blade to propel a boat.
  >> The Greenlanders proved that over 2000 years ago. But I still don't
  >> follow your point. Would you say it isn't good to totally immerse the
  >> blade? Or that everyone should use narrow blades?
 >
 > What is written on the site in reference to cavitation vs. ventilation
 > is as follows:
 > "Neither is any good, but what your average kayaker creates is
 > ventilation."
 >
 > My paddle cavitates when I pull hard. It goes in clean, takes no air
 > down with it, and it generates air bubbles on the low pressure side of
 > the blade, which is, by definition, cavitation (cavitation is not
 > limited to propeller blades, but occurs much more frequently due to the
 > intense pressures the blade places on the water). If I pull really hard,
 > the vortices on the blade will suck air down toward the paddle, creating
 > ventilation. This is tremendously inefficient and causes "slippage," as
 > referred to on the website you cited.

Never seen you paddle, but I'm betting you don't generate enough power
to lower the pressure on the back side of the paddle to the point that
water turns to vapor. That's cavitation. Air has nothing to do with it.
Kayak paddles ventilate.
 >
 > But that, again, isn't the point. Torque isn't the issue here. Paddles
 > do not generally twist in use.

Except, perhaps, asymm blades used upside down.

 > While there may be unbalanced pressure on
 > various points of the blade, the shaft should not torque on a
 > well-designed blade, regardless of symmetry.

Huh? Unbalanced pressure causes torque. Push harder on one side of the
blade, and it will twist around the shaft.

 > What I am discussing has little to do with the symmetry of the paddle,
 > but upon the stresses which cause injury to paddlers. Too much blade
 > can, and does, cause injury. Using an asymmetric blade upside down puts
 > the more blade into the water, thus putting more pressure on the
 > paddler. Whether or not this causes injury is a function of how tightly
 > the paddler holds the blade and how much stress the lever (paddle)
 > directs to the joints where tendons meet bone.
 >
  >> Perhaps you've never heard the arguments in favor of asymm paddles.
  >> Have a look here for a nice explanation:
  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.getoutcanoeing.co.uk/acatalog/canoeingArticles/detail_item_list.asp?ID=10&presentcat=Main%20Article%20Category&page=1" target="_blank">http://www.getoutcanoeing.co.uk/acatalog/canoeingArticles/detail_item_...t.asp?I</a>
  >>
 > I use an asymmetrical paddle and know why. We are discussing two
 > different things here.

Indeed. I keep trying to discuss the poor guy who messed up his arms
using an asymm AT paddle upside down. You seem to be talking about
somehting else. Go get your own thread.

 > More blade = more stress on paddler. Longer shaft
 > also translates to more stress on paddler, but there are points of
 > diminishing returns on that. A shorter shaft with a higher cadence
 > produces fewer injuries than a long shaft. If the shaft is too short,
 > however, a great amount of efficiency is lost.
 >
 > A large blade combined with a long shaft can cause injury more quickly
 > than a narrow blade (though my understanding is that the shaft length is
 > the bigger issue).

Well, yes, but we have no idea how big or small the OP's paddle blades
and shaft length were, do we?

OK, Rick, you've obviously convinced yourself, so if you say so...

Meantime, let's use our asymm blades right side up, OK?

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

On 11-Jul-2004, Rick <rjd9999.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

 > My paddle cavitates when I pull hard. It goes in clean, takes no air
 > down with it, and it generates air bubbles on the low pressure side of
 > the blade, which is, by definition, cavitation (cavitation is not
 > limited to propeller blades, but occurs much more frequently due to the
 > intense pressures the blade places on the water).

Intense pressures? If you can cause a paddle blade to cavitate, you're
the most powerful paddler the world has ever seen. BTW - cavitation bubbles
are not air - they are water vapour. And they collapse almost immediately.
Check the damage on your blade. The collapse will cause severe pitting.

A paddle has an area of 80-120 sq in, typically, with some bigger still.
If yours is, say, 100 sq in and you generate an average of 0.5 psi on the
back side, that's a total force of 50 lb. It takes most fast sea kayaks
less than 14 lb to hit hull speed.

Please provide a reasonable pressure profile that will generate a peak
of 15psi and an average of less than 0.15 psi (that's a 100:1 spread).

Paddles ventilate. End of story.

Mike<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time 

Frank Healy <frankandjames.TakeThisOut@lepton.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
 >
  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lightnings.co.uk/" target="_blank">http://www.lightnings.co.uk/</a> Adults > Paddles Guidelines > PDF
 >
 > Sorry it did not help - it was published to assist the youngsters who
 > attended a coaching day at a regatta last year. One of the GB coaches
 > gave a talk to parents and when the website was set up earlier this
 > year the information was published for their benefit...

Frank, do you (or the kids) use bent shafts in competition?

What are your opinions about feather angle? Do competitors
decide for themselves? What is the most common choice?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Paddle problem time