Painting with Two-Pack

In message <226724bd.0308070701.5f15eb5.DeleteThis@posting.google.com>
mike.e.worrall.DeleteThis@abc.com (mike worrall) wrote:

 >Steve:
 >
 >What 'synthetic' material are you proposing to put a two-pack paint
 >over?

Linseed oil synthetic based.

 >Since this is a boat-building forum, I take it that you've primed a
 >polyester resin, gel coat surface and are now wanting to paint it with
 >a two-part polyurethane paint. I also assume this is a 'topside'
 >(above the waterline) application?

Sorry Mike, My question was misleading particularly with this being a
boat forum but I have been told that applying two pack paint with a
"brush" on boats is quite a popular method as opposed to spraying.

This question may not be answered in a car forum because people
generally don't paint cars with a brush using two pack paint.

I am actually painting a vehicle that was re-painted in oil paint twenty
years ago but it's top coat was done in two pack, After twenty years the
paintwork now needs completely re-doing but I want to paint the vehicle
in the same way by applying synthetic oil primers and undercoats to the
wood and metal areas first with the intention of finally painting the
whole vehicle in a suitable two pack finish.

The vehicle is over eighty years old and I intend painting it in the old
fashioned way using oil paints. This would not normally pose a problem
only for the final coat being a modern two pack as opposed to the older
original oil based synthetics.

 >All two-part paints (that I'm aware of) require a specific 'epoxy'
 >(i.e. two-part) primer or under-coater. You cannot apply two-part
 >topside paint over a primer not designed for two-part polyurethanes.
 >See : <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.blakespaints.com" target="_blank">www.blakespaints.com</a> for additional information from this UK
 >paint manufacturer.

I agree but I am unclear as to what types of two pack paints are
available suitable for my purpose, Years ago we simply had two pack
Synthetics, now we have Acrylics and Polyurethanes.

 >Yes, you can re-apply as many coats of two-part polyurethane 'on top
 >of' each other as you want, (generaly) sanding between coats.

However I must emphasise that absolutely no spraying will be involved.
I know you can "spray on" multiple layers of two pack but can you
"brush on" multiple layers?.

Cheers,

Steve.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack 

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:27:18 +0000 (UTC), steve
<steve.RemoveThis@hsteve.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

 >However I must emphasise that absolutely no spraying will be involved.
 >I know you can "spray on" multiple layers of two pack but can you
 >"brush on" multiple layers?.

I have, but can't imagine the kind of finish I'm happy with would be
satisfactory for your application. But it certainly seems to stick all
right. Actually, to really fill you with horror, I chuck it on with a
paint roller then brush out the marks.

Jim C
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.surreyweb.org.uk/ibrsc/docs/jcmail.htm" target="_blank">http://www.surreyweb.org.uk/ibrsc/docs/jcmail.htm</a> can be used to email me.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack 

In message <4hh5jvkrklsfv6vs745tsnsuch38qj19bl.DeleteThis@4ax.com>
Jim Champ <see.sig.for.DeleteThis@email.options> wrote:

 >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:27:18 +0000 (UTC), steve
 ><steve.DeleteThis@hsteve.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
 >
  >>However I must emphasise that absolutely no spraying will be involved.
  >>I know you can "spray on" multiple layers of two pack but can you
  >>"brush on" multiple layers?.
 >
 >I have, but can't imagine the kind of finish I'm happy with would be
 >satisfactory for your application. But it certainly seems to stick all
 >right.

The beauty of using a two pack finish is the ability to flat and polish
out minor imperfections on the cured finish, But this cannot be done on
an oil based synthetic skin.

 >Actually, to really fill you with horror, I chuck it on with a paint
 >roller then brush out the marks.

That is the method I've been told and I hopefully don't expect to get
brush marks.

What was the paint you used?.

Steve.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack 

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:43:29 +0000 (UTC), Stephen Hull
<stephen.hull RemoveThis @btinternet.com> wrote:

 >What was the paint you used?.

I use International two pot over International primer over
epoxy/carbon/glass laminate and filler.

Jim C
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.surreyweb.org.uk/ibrsc/docs/jcmail.htm" target="_blank">http://www.surreyweb.org.uk/ibrsc/docs/jcmail.htm</a> can be used to email me.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In message <a678jv044nrm8ttuljuqe3gqcu97d379fe.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>
Jim Champ <see.sig.for.TakeThisOut@email.options> wrote:

 >On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:43:29 +0000 (UTC), Stephen Hull
 ><stephen.hull.TakeThisOut@btinternet.com> wrote:
 >
  >>What was the paint you used?.
 >
 >I use International two pot over International primer over
 >epoxy/carbon/glass laminate and filler.
 >
 >Jim C
 >http://www.surreyweb.org.uk/ibrsc/docs/jcmail.htm can be used to email me.

I've not hand painted two pack products before, but I have sprayed them.

It appears that the International Polyurethane paint system may be
compatible with what I propose to do

Unfortunately I can't access "www.blakespaints.com" to have a gander as
it reports bad nesting tags with my browser

Steve.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack 

hiya
the problem with 2 pack paints is they contain cyanide so unless you have
the right equipment I would think again, yes I know people use it with
little or no protection but that's up to the individual.

I recently painted my hull with yacht enamel using a small radiator roller
with a foam roller, instead of tipping off with a brush I used the same
roller very lightly over the previously painted area and the finish rivals
spraying.

Richard

flame away

<steve.RemoveThis@hsteve.freeserve.com> wrote in message
news:7578f01d4c.Steve@btinternet.com...
 > I know this is the preferred method of applying two pack paint to boats,
 > My question is:
 >
 > What is the most suitable two pack paint "type" to brush over freshly
 > primed and under coated "synthetic"?.
 >
 > Can two pack be re-applied more than once over previous layers again
 > by using brush application? and I wish to avoid any likelihood of a
 > solvent reaction.
 >
 > Can anyone please suggest a two pack paint available in the UK that will
 > perform exactly as described above?.
 >
 > Steve.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack 

In message <bh6k98$lng$1@titan.btinternet.com>
"fraggy" <fragged8.DeleteThis@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote:

 >hiya
 >the problem with 2 pack paints is they contain cyanide so unless you have
 >the right equipment I would think again, yes I know people use it with
 >little or no protection but that's up to the individual.

Breathing apparatus should be utilised when spraying two pack paints as
they do contain isocyanate.

I have the use of a large ventilated area when I get round to painting
the vehicle and I also intend wearing a mask.

 >I recently painted my hull with yacht enamel using a small radiator roller
 >with a foam roller, instead of tipping off with a brush I used the same
 >roller very lightly over the previously painted area and the finish rivals
 >spraying.

I won't be using a roller only a brush, Hoping this will also rival a
spray finish. I've decided not to use synthetic primers or undercoats
as I've just purchased two pack primer to use on the woodwork as this
should eliminate any possible synthetic paint solvent problems.

Steve.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack 

[snip]

   >>>What was the paint you used?.
  >>
  >>I use International two pot over International primer over
  >>epoxy/carbon/glass laminate and filler.
  >>
  >>Jim C

 >I've not hand painted two pack products before, but I have sprayed them.
 >
 >It appears that the International Polyurethane paint system may be
 >compatible with what I propose to do

I've finally got round to brush painting a couple of window frames on
the old Rolls Royce today using International perfection 709 two pack
polyurethane.

However the results are pretty awful so far

I have painted over two pack primer that has been left to cure for a
week so the polyurethane should go over it nicely but the 709 two pack
paint is drying far too quick and is not flowing out properly, I did
paint a test area a foot square on the wing and even that left brush
marks.

At the moment the paint as it is could not be used on larger panels if
it leaves brush marks showing on small painted areas.

Does the paint need additional thinning and if so what ratio of thinners
is required to give a longer open time or am I missing something else?.

Steve.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack 

Steve:

I've just finished painting a 30' sailboat hull with two-part
polyurethane using foam rollers, and learned a lot along the way.

I was reluctant to even consider spraying the paint, since I have no
experience with spray equipment, and because of the potential health
ramifications.

The suggested method of manually using these products - regardless of
manufacturer - is generally known as the 'roll and tip' method,
whereby one rolls on a small (say 6 sq ft) area then immediately
'tips' (lightly brushes) off the roller stipple. I began by
attempting to do this with the Epifanes two-part polyurethane, with
results similar to what you seem to be experiencing, i.e. remaining
brush marks (my environmental conditions were 80 deg F @ 50 % r.h.).
Unhappy with the results, I sanded off the Epifanes, taped off the
boat's transom into 3 similarly sized areas, then applied Awl Grip (US
Paint) to one area, Interlux two-part the next, and the Epifanes
two-part to the third, all using identical equipment, and within a few
minutes of each other. The hands-down winner was Awl Grip, which had
just detectable remaining brush marks. The Interlux was second, and
the Epifanes third (in my opinion).

I subsequently was turned on to (via this forum) what I now call the
'fridge' method of applying this paint. CAUTION: This method worked
for me using Awl Grip Off White, and may not be applicable to any
other paint/color combination or in different temp/humidity
conditions.

By mixing up the base/reactor/reducer the night before application,
then covering and placing in the refrigerator (about 8 hours between
mixing and use), the Awl Grip was applied using only the foam roller,
with INCREDIBLE results. Flow out was excellent, zero roller stipple,
zero brush marks, in short a "sprayed" result without the sprayer.

I don't know if a foam roller is applicable for painting a Rolls, but
if you ever need to paint a boat hull...

Mike Worrall
Los Angeles
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack 

In message <226724bd.0308191753.610f681 DeleteThis @posting.google.com>
mike.e.worrall DeleteThis @abc.com (mike worrall) wrote:

 >Steve:
 >
 >I've just finished painting a 30' sailboat hull with two-part
 >polyurethane using foam rollers, and learned a lot along the way.

Hi Mike,
I am still learning how to use this two pack polyurethane and I thought
using it would be very similar to oil based synthetics,
The International 709 performs more like cheap fast drying house paint.

Today I added a little thinner No9 and tried to paint the off side
window frames, although the open time was only marginally longer the
addition of thinners made covering even worse. I have been painting over
a beige two pack primer and blathered on the black two pack but it still
left heavy brush marks and didn't even cover the primer properly.
Black is supposed to be a dense pigment meaning it should cover or
obliterate extremely well but this stuff was like coloured varnish
hardly possessing any colour depth or flowing out properties whatsoever.

Before anyone asks I am accustomed to brush work but I fear this
particular polyurethane paint falls short of my expectations.

I have deliberately left out my signature and website details when
posting here to avoid possible conflicts as people may think I am
looking for site hits but as I've said previously I am learning how
to unsuccessfully brush an unknown to me polyurethane material.

 >I was reluctant to even consider spraying the paint, since I have no
 >experience with spray equipment, and because of the potential health
 >ramifications.

I could not use a spray system where I am even if I wanted to as there
are other vehicles in the garage that must remain in situ so paint
overspray is not an option.

 >The suggested method of manually using these products - regardless of
 >manufacturer - is generally known as the 'roll and tip' method,
 >whereby one rolls on a small (say 6 sq ft) area then immediately
 >'tips' (lightly brushes) off the roller stipple.

I have painted large furniture removal vans in the past with synthetic
oil based paint without a problem but never experienced the problems
I'm having at the moment with this faster drying two pack polyurethane.
I couldn't even paint an area a foot square succesfully .

If you'd care to take a look at this picture of a Silver Ghost at:
"http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk/examples/1921.jpeg" 132kb,
It is a similar model to the one I'm painting and you will see the size
of the tiny wooden windows frames and small metal panels, Compared to a
full sized boat I'd have thought painting a car would be quite easy.

 >I began by attempting to do this with the Epifanes two-part
 >polyurethane, with results similar to what you seem to be
 >experiencing, i.e. remaining brush marks (my environmental conditions
 >were 80 deg F @ 50 % r.h.). Unhappy with the results, I sanded off
 >the Epifanes, taped off the boat's transom into 3 similarly sized
 >areas, then applied Awl Grip (US Paint) to one area, Interlux two-part
 >the next, and the Epifanes two-part to the third, all using identical
 >equipment, and within a few minutes of each other. The hands-down
 >winner was Awl Grip, which had just detectable remaining brush marks.
 >The Interlux was second, and the Epifanes third (in my opinion).

I don't know if Awl Grip is available in the UK but if I ever need to
paint using two pack again I'll consider it my first choice, But having
forked out for the 709 I will persevere with it for the time being.

 >I subsequently was turned on to (via this forum) what I now call the
 >'fridge' method of applying this paint. CAUTION: This method worked
 >for me using Awl Grip Off White, and may not be applicable to any
 >other paint/color combination or in different temp/humidity
 >conditions.

This is an interesting forum and probably the only place I am likely to
gain this sort information (all gratefully received) on hand painting
using two pack paints.

It is usually customary to heat paint up to induce thinness to ease
application thus avoiding thinners but I must say the fridge method
sounds very intriguing although I'd imagine it would thicken up the
paint so much it would have to be applied by roller. The temperature
here in the UK at the moment is ideal to perform such painting tasks,
Perhaps a reducer would be beneficial if it could actually slow down
the curing/drying process.

 >By mixing up the base/reactor/reducer the night before application,
 >then covering and placing in the refrigerator (about 8 hours between
 >mixing and use), the Awl Grip was applied using only the foam roller,
 >with INCREDIBLE results. Flow out was excellent, zero roller stipple,
 >zero brush marks, in short a "sprayed" result without the sprayer.
 >
 >I don't know if a foam roller is applicable for painting a Rolls, but
 >if you ever need to paint a boat hull...

I bought a small foam roller today to use on the side panels being a
straight black over black it may do the business but for the woodwork
I'm thinking of using a synthetic coach enamel instead of the two pack
polyurethane.

 >Mike Worrall
 >Los Angeles

Thanks for all the input it is very much appreciated

Steve,
The Wirral.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack 

Mike,

A good place to start when confronted with a problem like this is the
Material Safety Data Sheet's. Look up both Awl Grip and the 709 and see
what percentages of solvents are used in each and if the Awl Grip has
any different ingredients. If so, play with the percentages and
ingredients of the 709. Sometimes it will screw things up but sometimes
you can make a discovery.

Ron
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack 

On 19 Aug 2003 18:53:06 -0700, mike.e.worrall.TakeThisOut@abc.com (mike worrall)
wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

Brave tests. Hope you got a good whole result out of it. Thanks for
the post.

>Steve:
>
>I've just finished painting a 30' sailboat hull with two-part
>polyurethane using foam rollers, and learned a lot along the way.
snip of interesting experiments.
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The rest sit around and make snide comments.

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dont use a brush use a small radiator roller.

"Steve" <steve.RemoveThis@hsteve.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:87da96244c.Steve@btinternet.com...
>
> [snip]
>
> >>>What was the paint you used?.
> >>
> >>I use International two pot over International primer over
> >>epoxy/carbon/glass laminate and filler.
> >>
> >>Jim C
>
> >I've not hand painted two pack products before, but I have sprayed them.
> >
> >It appears that the International Polyurethane paint system may be
> >compatible with what I propose to do
>
> I've finally got round to brush painting a couple of window frames on
> the old Rolls Royce today using International perfection 709 two pack
> polyurethane.
>
> However the results are pretty awful so far
>
> I have painted over two pack primer that has been left to cure for a
> week so the polyurethane should go over it nicely but the 709 two pack
> paint is drying far too quick and is not flowing out properly, I did
> paint a test area a foot square on the wing and even that left brush
> marks.
>
> At the moment the paint as it is could not be used on larger panels if
> it leaves brush marks showing on small painted areas.
>
> Does the paint need additional thinning and if so what ratio of thinners
> is required to give a longer open time or am I missing something else?.
>
> Steve.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Painting with Two-Pack