Peddle Boats

I remember someone a while ago adapted a peddle drive to one of Gavin
Atkin's mouseboats and was quite happy with it. He used a "surfbike" drive.

Try this link if it works for you -
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mouseboats/message/1906" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mouseboats/message/1906</a>

--
Andrew Butchart
andrewb RemoveThis @abutchartconsulting.com
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.abutchartconsulting.com/sailing/" target="_blank">http://www.abutchartconsulting.com/sailing/</a> - The Floating Bear

"Bob La Londe" <usenet RemoveThis @diycomponents.com> wrote in message
news:bgb8lb$mnni9$1@ID-163264.news.uni-berlin.de...
 > I have wondered about the efficiency of peddle power.
 >
 > Glen-L has a nice design for a peddle powered boat, and there are numerous
 > peddle powere ABS plastic boats available for sale at moderate prices both
 > on-line and in the local big box stores.
 >
 > They all have one thing in common. They use a paddle wheel for
propulsion.
 > I can see the obvious simplicity in design. A chain from the pedals to
the
 > drive axle and its ready to go. In almost all other craft though a
 > propeller desing seems to be more efficient.
 >
 > From big ships to small pleasure craft the propellor seems to be the rule.
 > For a small peddle powered craft would a prop design make the best use of
 > the available power as well? How in the world woudl you go abotu figuring
 > out the optimum size and pitch prop for an application like that?
 >
 >
 >




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 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

In article <bgb8lb$mnni9$1@ID-163264.news.uni-berlin.de>, "Bob La Londe"
<usenet DeleteThis @diycomponents.com> writes:

 >For a small peddle powered craft would a prop design make the best use of
 >the available power as well? How in the world woudl you go abotu figuring
 >out the optimum size and pitch prop for an application like that?


Speaking academically, there's a reason why you don't generally see paddle
arrangements at Human Powered Vehicle (HPV) competitions. In general, props
are more efficient than paddle-wheels, though it's hard to compare them apples
to apples. Sizing props for HPV is essentially the same as for non-HPV craft,
and primarily a function of:

1) the velocity you're trying to achieve or maintain,
2) the craft's hydrodynamic drag at that velocity, and
3) the power/duty-cycle of engine.

In your case, *you* are the engine. To give you a ballpark idea of the power
you're fitting the prop to, assuming 50th percentile male, 80th percentile
athlete (typical for HPV races), and a cadence of 1.5 cycles/sec:

Continuous .25hp
1-hour .33hp
20-min .50hp
3-min .75hp
10-sec 1.20hp

As you mentioned though, paddle wheels are generally simpler mechanisms -- to
design, to build, to operate, to modify, and to maintain. Prop mechanisms are
generally based off more complicated standard or recumbant bicycles with a
geared chain drive, so sizing the prop also becomes a function of matching your
expected power and cadence to the gearing's final rpm range. For example, in
terms of power, we're generally talking small trolling motor. But it would be
a mistake to choose a .25hp trolling prop optimized for [example only] 300rpm
if the final gearing on your pedal mechanism results in 400rpm. Clear as mud,
eh?! Bottom line is there is no "rule of thumb" prop spec for what you're
attempting to do, though there's a weallth of emperical and anecdotal
information to *help* on HPBoat sites. Just plug "human powered boat" into
your browser.

Warm Regards,
Shawn<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

I thought only brokers peddled boats.

;-P

Steve "been pedalling bikes for years...."
 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

I just tore the pedals and rod out of a discarded kid's toy with the idea
of some day installing foot operated paddles on one of my one sheet boats.

Prelimary thoughts are -

1. to be able to drift into shallow water only two paddles per side at 180
deg. so they can be held horizonal entirely clear of the water. set up a
shock cord to hold the peddals in place with the paddles horizontal out of
the water.

2. to avoid as much as possible pushing down on the water, use a bent
paddle shaft.

3. to mimic arm paddling have the blades on both sides enter teh water at
the same time - paddle, glide, paddle, glide - instead of constant churning
of the water.

4. to allow a combination of foot peddaling and double blade arm paddling
have the option of the foot paddles on each side 90 deg from each other
instead of parallel. imagine the power with both feet pedalling and arm
paddling at the same time - tandem paddle solo power kayak.

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 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

William says:

 >3. to mimic arm paddling have the blades on both sides enter teh water at
 >the same time - paddle, glide, paddle, glide - instead of constant churning
 >of the water.
 >

Gonna kill your legs, Will. Much better to have a constant pedalling pressure.
Try riding a bike where half of the chainring (front cog) has no teeth.

Steve<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

In article <20030731215637.18595.00000694.DeleteThis@mb-m18.aol.com>,
saildesign.DeleteThis@aol.comnospam (Stephen Baker) writes:

 >Gonna kill your legs, Will. Much better to have a constant pedalling
 >pressure.
 > Try riding a bike where half of the chainring (front cog) has no teeth.
 >

Great analogy! You'd also waste a lot of energy just turning the mass of
the assy to position the next paddle ... far more efficient to always have at
least one paddle in the water ... if only I could get my brain to work that way
.... <!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

Stephen Baker (saildesign@aol.comnospam) writes:
 > William says:
 >
  >>3. to mimic arm paddling have the blades on both sides enter teh water at
  >>the same time - paddle, glide, paddle, glide - instead of constant churning
  >>of the water.
  >>
 >
 > Gonna kill your legs, Will. Much better to have a constant pedalling pressure.
 > Try riding a bike where half of the chainring (front cog) has no teeth.

no moreso than paddling kills your arms. and legs are stronger than arms.
the only problem I can see is the weak mechanical advantage of the small
diameter rotation of the kid's toy crank. like having the peddal crank on
a bike smaller than the cog wheel on the axel. the paddle shaft would have
to be short as feasible. hadn't considered that.

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 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

William Watt says:

 >no moreso than paddling kills your arms.

Not so - paddling kayak-wise uses a full movement of the arms, ending with the
paddle being withdrawn and the other arm starting to work. No jarring.
Having a blade come out of the water while still under full power, then (say)
half a revolution until the other blade hits is going to be..... hmmmm -
looks for marine analogy.... like NOT having a throttle-man on an offshore
powerboat. The prop will come back into the water after a jump with the engine
spinning maddly, suddenly get loaded and break the shaft/blade whichever. Not
good. ;-(

 >the only problem I can see is the weak mechanical advantage of the small
 >diameter rotation of the kid's toy crank. like having the peddal crank on
 >a bike smaller than the cog wheel on the axel.

THat situation is directly analogous to the kayak paddle, where the lever of
the arm to the fulcrum (other arm) is less than the fulcrum to the blade.
Makes the most use of the minimal power available frm a human body. Lance
Armstrong at peak produces 600Watts when pedalling.

 >the paddle shaft would have
 >to be short as feasible. hadn't considered that.

See above.

Steve
Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/private/scbweb/home.htm" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/private/scbweb/home.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

Bob:

We have a number of pedal-powered boats in the "Fun Boats" section of
the web site.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.dngoodchild.com" target="_blank">http://www.dngoodchild.com</a>

Cheers,

DNG

Bob La Londe wrote:

 > I have wondered about the efficiency of peddle power.
 >
 > Glen-L has a nice design for a peddle powered boat, and there are numerous
 > peddle powere ABS plastic boats available for sale at moderate prices both
 > on-line and in the local big box stores.
 >
 > They all have one thing in common. They use a paddle wheel for propulsion.
 > I can see the obvious simplicity in design. A chain from the pedals to the
 > drive axle and its ready to go. In almost all other craft though a
 > propeller desing seems to be more efficient.
 >
 > From big ships to small pleasure craft the propellor seems to be the rule.
 > For a small peddle powered craft would a prop design make the best use of
 > the available power as well? How in the world woudl you go abotu figuring
 > out the optimum size and pitch prop for an application like that?
 >
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

Hi

"Bob La Londe" <usenet.DeleteThis@diycomponents.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:bgb8lb$mnni9$1@ID-163264.news.uni-berlin.de...

 > I have wondered about the efficiency of peddle power.
 >

I seen floating platforms driven by a tractor or a car placed ontop two wide
rollers , where one ended in paddeling blades each side of the "barge".
Like building a floating platform that will carry a car chained in place.
The one I refere was just used to bring cows to a small island for the summer,
and in terms of maintaince very little was required with this type of pover
transmission,
The floating platform was round 20 meter long and 8 meter wide.
P.C.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/structure-testbench/" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/structure-testbench/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

I always thought about getting an old sailing cat, mounting a pushbike
frame on it, and feeding the drive through a secondhand outboard leg
mounted to the rear crossmember. Mind you, the paddle wheel thing would
be dead easy for a cat.
It would be cheap to do, and you would have a fast, roomy boat. Add
bike frames as you gain passengers!

Andrew.
 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

Stephen Baker (saildesign@aol.comnospam) writes:
 > William Watt says:
 >
  >>no moreso than paddling kills your arms.
 >
 > Not so - paddling kayak-wise uses a full movement of the arms, ending with the
 > paddle being withdrawn and the other arm starting to work. No jarring.
 > Having a blade come out of the water while still under full power, then (say)
 > half a revolution until the other blade hits is going to be..... hmmmm -
 > looks for marine analogy.... like NOT having a throttle-man on an offshore
 > powerboat. The prop will come back into the water after a jump with the engine
 > spinning maddly, suddenly get loaded and break the shaft/blade whichever. Not
 > good. ;-(

I'm not actually looking for a continous kayak-style power, but a
discontinuous canoe-style or a discontintuous oar-stlye power. I've seen
foot-operated oars in a film on Southeast Asia.

I'm not looking at a bunch of little blades churning up the surface, but
two larger blades deeper in the water like on a canoe. I want the boat to
go smoothly and silently like a canoe, not making a lot of noise like the
peddal paddle boats I've seen. A slower action with larger, deeper blades.
Low rpm's, larger blades, more effective power.

I don't think the kids peddal shaft allows enough piston action in the
legs to work the large paddles.



--
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 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats 

Hobie Cat makes a pedal system for their kayaks that is like a set of wings
flapping under the boat. I've never tried it myself but it looks like an
interesting idea.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.hobiecat.com/kayaking/index.html</a>

- Scott

"Bob La Londe" <usenet.TakeThisOut@diycomponents.com> wrote in message
news:bgb8lb$mnni9$1@ID-163264.news.uni-berlin.de...
 > I have wondered about the efficiency of peddle power.
 >
 > Glen-L has a nice design for a peddle powered boat, and there are numerous
 > peddle powere ABS plastic boats available for sale at moderate prices both
 > on-line and in the local big box stores.
 >
 > They all have one thing in common. They use a paddle wheel for
propulsion.
 > I can see the obvious simplicity in design. A chain from the pedals to
the
 > drive axle and its ready to go. In almost all other craft though a
 > propeller desing seems to be more efficient.
 >
 > From big ships to small pleasure craft the propellor seems to be the rule.
 > For a small peddle powered craft would a prop design make the best use of
 > the available power as well? How in the world woudl you go abotu figuring
 > out the optimum size and pitch prop for an application like that?
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Peddle Boats