Potable Water - The Third Way.

On Sep 21, 10:15 pm, Andrew Erickson <gm....TakeThisOut@drewe.reverse2mail.net>
wrote:
> In article <Xns99B2DA70E2246noonehome....TakeThisOut@208.49.80.253>,
>
>
>
> Larry <no....TakeThisOut@home.com> wrote:
> > Brian Whatcott <betw....TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> >news:98h8f3lm0ti01gmg24nl9fljk567c0buu1@4ax.com:
>
> > > You've heard all about distilling water, and you've heard all about
> > > reverse osmosis, but you haven't heard about low-cost, low energy
> > > stills: they are brand new.
>
> > > Briefly:
> > > Take one forty ft vertical tube filled with saline.
> > > Take one forty ft vertical tube filled with fresh water.
> > > Connect them with a little engineering help - at the top.
>
> > > The boiling point of water at sea level pressure is about 100 deg C
>
> > > The boiling point of water at the top of a sealed 40 ft column of
> > > water is near ambient.
> > > So, it doesn't take much heat to boil the brackish water, and have it
> > > pass to the fresh column where it is slightly cooled to hold the near
> > > vacuum conditions at the boiling level.
>
> > > [An engineering effort of a U of Utah group I think]
>
> > > Brian Whatcott Altus OK
>
> > My deepest apologies to the engineers who may be rolling under their
> > desks, crushing their pocket protectors. It took me a while to stop
> > chortling. I nearly lost my Chinese dinner!
>
> > Psst...Brian....40'? What about the lake above 40', it's 400' deep and
> > above 40' ASL. It hasn't boiled away in millions of years from all that
> > pressure and lack of pressure.
>
> Ummm...there is quite a difference between atmospheric pressure at 40'
> ASL and a (near) vacuum. Presumably the connection at the top is
> airtight and made with as little air as possible entering the tubes, and
> presumably also the bottoms of the tubes open and submerged in some sort
> of a vented container At sea level, atmospheric pressure will only
> support somewhere in the vicinity of 40 feet of water, so the top of the
> tubes will be approaching a vacuum. (This is why wells water wells
> deeper than 35 or so feet require a pump in the well, rather than at the
> top.)
>
> I see no reason why this wouldn't work, at least to some degree,
> although I do wonder how using a still of any sort differs from
> distillation. I also wonder how easy it would be to make an effective
> vertical solar collector on a boat that doesn't need constant climbing
> about to fiddle and adjust.
>
> --
> Andrew Erickson
>
> "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
> lose." -- Jim Elliot

hmmm, I wonder what the rate would be? One could assume that you do
not have to put in any heat to increase the temp so any heat input
would simply go into latent heat of water vapor. You would hav o
maybe use solar to heat the salt water side and cool the fresh water
side by immersing it in the ocean. Then the max rate would simply be
power in (whatever the heat from the sun would be in watts/m2 times
the area of your collector) which is Joules/sec which is roughly 4
calories/sec. Somebody look up the latent heat of water (I dont have
my handbook handy) and then you have grams/sec of fresh water (maximum
rate).
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

Brian Whatcott <betwys1 DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net> wrote in
news:98h8f3lm0ti01gmg24nl9fljk567c0buu1@4ax.com:

>
> You've heard all about distilling water, and you've heard all about
> reverse osmosis, but you haven't heard about low-cost, low energy
> stills: they are brand new.
>
> Briefly:
> Take one forty ft vertical tube filled with saline.
> Take one forty ft vertical tube filled with fresh water.
> Connect them with a little engineering help - at the top.
>
> The boiling point of water at sea level pressure is about 100 deg C
>
> The boiling point of water at the top of a sealed 40 ft column of
> water is near ambient.
> So, it doesn't take much heat to boil the brackish water, and have it
> pass to the fresh column where it is slightly cooled to hold the near
> vacuum conditions at the boiling level.
>
> [An engineering effort of a U of Utah group I think]
>
> Brian Whatcott Altus OK
>

My deepest apologies to the engineers who may be rolling under their
desks, crushing their pocket protectors. It took me a while to stop
chortling. I nearly lost my Chinese dinner!

Psst...Brian....40'? What about the lake above 40', it's 400' deep and
above 40' ASL. It hasn't boiled away in millions of years from all that
pressure and lack of pressure.

In Tehran, Iran, my apartment was about 7000' ASL. Water DID boil at a
lot lower temperature. Making a cake at 7000' altitude is simply
amazing! ONE little cake mix makes 4 cakes!.....er, ah, after you clean
out the oven from putting ALL the cake mix in the pan, filling the oven!

But, alas, even at 7000', the water in my glass didn't boil itself at
ambient temperature, even at 110F out on the lawn!

Every engineering firm across the planet is going to be a jolly place
after hearing about this on Monday...(c;

Larry
--
Sure glad it doesn't work that way! We'd all be DEAD!
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

In article <Xns99B2DA70E2246noonehomecom.TakeThisOut@208.49.80.253>,
Larry <noone.TakeThisOut@home.com> wrote:

> Brian Whatcott <betwys1.TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:98h8f3lm0ti01gmg24nl9fljk567c0buu1@4ax.com:
>
> >
> > You've heard all about distilling water, and you've heard all about
> > reverse osmosis, but you haven't heard about low-cost, low energy
> > stills: they are brand new.
> >
> > Briefly:
> > Take one forty ft vertical tube filled with saline.
> > Take one forty ft vertical tube filled with fresh water.
> > Connect them with a little engineering help - at the top.
> >
> > The boiling point of water at sea level pressure is about 100 deg C
> >
> > The boiling point of water at the top of a sealed 40 ft column of
> > water is near ambient.
> > So, it doesn't take much heat to boil the brackish water, and have it
> > pass to the fresh column where it is slightly cooled to hold the near
> > vacuum conditions at the boiling level.
> >
> > [An engineering effort of a U of Utah group I think]
> >
> > Brian Whatcott Altus OK
> >
>
> My deepest apologies to the engineers who may be rolling under their
> desks, crushing their pocket protectors. It took me a while to stop
> chortling. I nearly lost my Chinese dinner!
>
> Psst...Brian....40'? What about the lake above 40', it's 400' deep and
> above 40' ASL. It hasn't boiled away in millions of years from all that
> pressure and lack of pressure.

Ummm...there is quite a difference between atmospheric pressure at 40'
ASL and a (near) vacuum. Presumably the connection at the top is
airtight and made with as little air as possible entering the tubes, and
presumably also the bottoms of the tubes open and submerged in some sort
of a vented container At sea level, atmospheric pressure will only
support somewhere in the vicinity of 40 feet of water, so the top of the
tubes will be approaching a vacuum. (This is why wells water wells
deeper than 35 or so feet require a pump in the well, rather than at the
top.)

I see no reason why this wouldn't work, at least to some degree,
although I do wonder how using a still of any sort differs from
distillation. I also wonder how easy it would be to make an effective
vertical solar collector on a boat that doesn't need constant climbing
about to fiddle and adjust.

--
Andrew Erickson

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
lose." -- Jim Elliot
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

dlzc <dlzc1 DeleteThis @cox.net> wrote in news:1190415672.506271.93890
@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

> There are ship-board distiller units that use an engine to pull a
> vacuum, and the engine's waste heat to boil that water, to generate
> drinking water. A little shorter...
>
> David A. Smith
>
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point

"The boiling point of water is 100 °C (212 °F) at standard pressure. On
top of Mount Everest the pressure is about 260 mbar (26 kPa) so the
boiling point of water is 69 °C. (156.2 °F)."

AT 40' ASL, the boiling point must be down to...to....211.95F!

Larry
--
Search youtube for "Depleted Uranium"
The ultimate dirty bomb......
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

Dear Larry:

"Larry" <noone DeleteThis @home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99B2DB34D71CAnoonehomecom@208.49.80.253...
> dlzc <dlzc1 DeleteThis @cox.net> wrote in news:1190415672.506271.93890
> @k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
>
>> There are ship-board distiller units that use an
>> engine to pull a vacuum, and the engine's
>> waste heat to boil that water, to generate
>> drinking water. A little shorter...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point
>
> "The boiling point of water is 100 0C (212 0F) at
> standard pressure. On top of Mount Everest the
> pressure is about 260 mbar (26 kPa) so the
> boiling point of water is 69 0C. (156.2 0F)."
>
> AT 40' ASL, the boiling point must be down
> to...to....211.95F!

What Brian left to the reader's imagination, is that the head
space of the tubes is at a near perfect vacuum, flooded only with
water vapor. You might recall that a perfect vacuum will lift a
column of water about 32 feet, on a high pressure day. Or had
you not figured that out?

David A. Smith
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

"Larry" <noone.TakeThisOut@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99B2DA70E2246noonehomecom@208.49.80.253...
> Brian Whatcott <betwys1.TakeThisOut@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:98h8f3lm0ti01gmg24nl9fljk567c0buu1@4ax.com:
>
>>
>> You've heard all about distilling water, and you've heard all about
>> reverse osmosis, but you haven't heard about low-cost, low energy
>> stills: they are brand new.
>>
>> Briefly:
>> Take one forty ft vertical tube filled with saline.
>> Take one forty ft vertical tube filled with fresh water.
>> Connect them with a little engineering help - at the top.
>>
>> The boiling point of water at sea level pressure is about 100 deg C
>>
>> The boiling point of water at the top of a sealed 40 ft column of
>> water is near ambient.
>> So, it doesn't take much heat to boil the brackish water, and have it
>> pass to the fresh column where it is slightly cooled to hold the near
>> vacuum conditions at the boiling level.
>>
>> [An engineering effort of a U of Utah group I think]
>>
>> Brian Whatcott Altus OK
>>
>
> My deepest apologies to the engineers who may be rolling under their
> desks, crushing their pocket protectors. It took me a while to stop
> chortling. I nearly lost my Chinese dinner!
>
I think he is suggesting that the two tube be connected so that they form a
vacuum at the top. It wouldn't take much to make the saltwater evaporate to
fill the vacuum and condense over on the fresh water side. Productivity
wouldn't be very high though.
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 01:41:21 GMT, "Toller" <Toller RemoveThis @Yahoo.com> wrote:

>I think he is suggesting that the two tube be connected so that they form a
>vacuum at the top. It wouldn't take much to make the saltwater evaporate to
>fill the vacuum and condense over on the fresh water side.

Precisely right. I'm surprised Larry didn't catch that.
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 01:21:39 +0000, Larry <noone RemoveThis @home.com> wrote:

[Brian]
>> The boiling point of water at the top of a sealed 40 ft column of
>> water is near ambient.

>My deepest apologies to the engineers who may be rolling under their
>desks, crushing their pocket protectors. It took me a while to stop
>chortling. I nearly lost my Chinese dinner!
...
>Larry

They say if you give a fool half a chance, he will rush in.
And so he did. TWICE! Chortling, at that.

Brian W
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

Brian Whatcott wrote:

> On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 01:21:39 +0000, Larry <noone.TakeThisOut@home.com> wrote:
>
> [Brian]
>
>>>The boiling point of water at the top of a sealed 40 ft column of
>>>water is near ambient.
>
>
>>My deepest apologies to the engineers who may be rolling under their
>>desks, crushing their pocket protectors. It took me a while to stop
>>chortling. I nearly lost my Chinese dinner!
>
> ..
>
>>Larry
>
>
> They say if you give a fool half a chance, he will rush in.
> And so he did. TWICE! Chortling, at that.
>
> Brian W


And your point was???
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 01:04:55 -0500, cavelamb himself
<cavelamb DeleteThis @Xearthlink.net> wrote:

>Brian Whatcott wrote:

>>>>The boiling point of water at the top of a sealed 40 ft column of
>>>>water is near ambient.

>> They say if you give a fool half a chance, he will rush in.
>> And so he did. TWICE! Chortling, at that.
>>
>> Brian W

>And your point was???

Put this pointy hat on, and go stand in the corner
with that other fellow.
I'll tell you when to sit down again.

Brian W
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" wrote:
>
> Dear Larry:
>
> "Larry" <noone RemoveThis @home.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns99B2DB34D71CAnoonehomecom@208.49.80.253...
> > dlzc <dlzc1 RemoveThis @cox.net> wrote in news:1190415672.506271.93890
> > @k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
> >
> >> There are ship-board distiller units that use an
> >> engine to pull a vacuum, and the engine's
> >> waste heat to boil that water, to generate
> >> drinking water. A little shorter...
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point
> >
> > "The boiling point of water is 100 0C (212 0F) at
> > standard pressure. On top of Mount Everest the
> > pressure is about 260 mbar (26 kPa) so the
> > boiling point of water is 69 0C. (156.2 0F)."
> >
> > AT 40' ASL, the boiling point must be down
> > to...to....211.95F!
>
> What Brian left to the reader's imagination, is that the head
> space of the tubes is at a near perfect vacuum, flooded only with
> water vapor. You might recall that a perfect vacuum will lift a
> column of water about 32 feet, on a high pressure day. Or had
> you not figured that out?

Well no, he obviously hadn't figured that out. Nor can anybody figure
out what is going to hold a column of water 40 ft high as was stated in
the original post. The tubes may be 40 feet but the column of water will
be considerably less. How much less will depend on how much energy is
heating on the hot side and how much energy is cooling on the cool side.
The total amount of energy needed is not going to be any different than
any other distilling method.
Unless you have the free or cheap sources of cooling and heating at
specific temperatures this isn't going to work any better either.

-jim



>
> David A. Smith

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 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

On Sat, 22 Sep 2007 10:15:40 -0500, jim wrote:


>> What Brian left to the reader's imagination, is that the head
>> space of the tubes is at a near perfect vacuum, flooded only with
>> water vapor. You might recall that a perfect vacuum will lift a
>> column of water about 32 feet, on a high pressure day. Or had
>> you not figured that out?

>Well no, he obviously hadn't figured that out. Nor can anybody figure
>out what is going to hold a column of water 40 ft high as was stated in
>the original post. The tubes may be 40 feet but the column of water will
>be considerably less. How much less will depend on how much energy is
>heating on the hot side and how much energy is cooling on the cool side.
>The total amount of energy needed is not going to be any different than
>any other distilling method.
> Unless you have the free or cheap sources of cooling and heating at
>specific temperatures this isn't going to work any better either.
>
>-jim



Well, at least this respondent Jim, is operating at shall we say the
7th grade level of science/engineering insight. Like so many other
products of the domestic school system, he seems to have a severe
case of self-esteem syndrome.

Still, he may be retrievable, starting with a science demonstration
he may have missed. Place a beaker of water in a bell-jar and pump
the air out.

When 99% of the air has been pumped out, the water in the beaker is
boiling vigorously, until, in the usual way, the beaker boils dry.
The beaker feels cool to the touch, naturally.

To quote him: "unless I have a cheap source of heating this won't
work..."

For the $64 prize: NOW do you get it?

Brian Whatcott Altus OK
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way. 

There's another neat way you can demonstrate this with minimal equipment.

Take a tight fitting jar and get the water boiling vigerously in it with the
cap on loose enough to let the steam out. When it is full of dense steam
and about 1/3 boiling water, remove instantly from heat and tighten cap.

When everything is cooled to room temperature, put an ice cube against the
jar and the water will start to boil. The ice condenses the water vapor
further, reducing the pressure to the point where the water will boil at
room temperature.

I've seen it done and it looks like the ice cube is boiling the water.

My father won a science fair doing this back in the 1930's.

--
Roger Long
 >> Stay informed about: Potable Water - The Third Way.