River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks

Hopefully, the river is rated based on it's features, characteristics,
and dangers. What craft you are in has no bearing on the river. It
doesn't care what you may fall out of.

Many novice rafters can safely enjoy a Class (Grade) 4 run, while some
novice kayakers may have their hands full on Class 3. That is not a
hard and fast rule, but an over simplification. Some runs greatly
favor kayaks because of size. Large boats don't always fit where
small boats fit.

I don't think there are many Class six runs being done routinely.

(Wilko, I hope I am correct in assuming that European standards are
substantially the same as U.S.?)


Just my $.02 (while I try to help breathe some life back into RBP)


-Dan


On 11 Sep 2003 02:11:48 -0700, Zattlebone.DeleteThis@yahoo.com (ZattleBone)
wrote:

 >Anyone know the differences in the two grading systems?
 >
 >A friend has just come back from South Africa where (as a complete
 >rafting novice) he was running Grade 5. The kayakers supporting the
 >raft all went off to do a Grade 6 run in the afternoon. The numbers
 >seem a bit high to me.
 >
 >Any ideas? Is a grade 6 raft-rapid actually a grade 4/5 kayak-run?
 >
 >Zatt.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks 

Dan Valleskey wrote:

 > I don't think there are many Class six runs being done routinely.

Same story here.

 > (Wilko, I hope I am correct in assuming that European standards are
 > substantially the same as U.S.?)

From what I've seen in the U.S., I would say so. Maybe the comparison
with western U.S. rivers/ratings fits the type of rivers here better,
though.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko DeleteThis @dse.nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wilko.webzone.ru/" target="_blank">http://wilko.webzone.ru/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Wilko" <kayaker.DeleteThis@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:1fg8b.37557$tK5.4769674@zonnet-reader-1...
 >
 > Dan Valleskey wrote:
 >
  > > I don't think there are many Class six runs being done routinely.
 >
 > Same story here.
 >
  > > (Wilko, I hope I am correct in assuming that European standards are
  > > substantially the same as U.S.?)
 >
 > From what I've seen in the U.S., I would say so. Maybe the comparison
 > with western U.S. rivers/ratings fits the type of rivers here better,
 > though.
 >

The interesting thing about western ratings is that there is no numerical
classification for 'unrunnable'. Class 10 often is described as "an
inexperienced boatman in a good quality boat has less than a 50-50 chance of
making it right-side up." I like the 10-step breakdown, too, since it
clears up some of that vast grey area between Class III and Class IV on the
traditional grading scale.

--riverman

(and it sounds a lot like Spinal Tap, too.)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks 

Could just be that the locals have decided to make up their own grading
system so that they sound cool, or possibly just lied.

There are a few examples of rivers that are not graded on the
international scale (Grand Canyon 1-10?) but as far as I know people
have converted these to real terms by now.

I have seen some discrepancy over raft vs kayak grading when I've been
in the US, or at least that is our assumption. Some guidebooks have
different grades to others and the best idea we could come up with was
that sometimes big stoppers will look more difficult to kayaks and
narrow technical sections will look more difficult to rafts. This does
not mean that grade 4 in a rafting guide always equates to grade 5 in a
kayak or anything, just that where we have noticed differences of
opinions it depended on which type of craft would find the rapid easier
or harder.

It could also be that the river(s) in question were last graded 20 years
ago when a lot of stuff was overgraded due to thought of consequences. I
fully agree that danger should not be factored into the grade, but
almost every guidebook does so at some time, I've even found myself
using it in my reasoning and I think it's wrong!

There is also the possibility that the outfit is a bit suspect and does
regularly run grade 5 with beginners and the guides do head off and run
grade 6 every day after work - people doing, or claiming to do, that
sort of thing are usually complete dopeheads who have long since
forgotten what grading really means anyway. They probably also aren't
very useful as safety boaters!

There is a fairly good case for expanding the grading system but no-one
will actually make a stand and attempt to do it.

Anyway Zatt, will you be bringing some beginners to Scotland so I can
show them some nice grade 7 stuff????

JIM

ZattleBone wrote:

 > Anyone know the differences in the two grading systems?
 >
 > A friend has just come back from South Africa where (as a complete
 > rafting novice) he was running Grade 5. The kayakers supporting the
 > raft all went off to do a Grade 6 run in the afternoon. The numbers
 > seem a bit high to me.
 >
 > Any ideas? Is a grade 6 raft-rapid actually a grade 4/5 kayak-run?
 >
 > Zatt.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks 

"Jim Wallis" <kayaker-or-jim.wallis.DeleteThis@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:vpjsjb.qgf.ln@Eskdale...

 > There is a fairly good case for expanding the grading system but no-one
 > will actually make a stand and attempt to do it.
 >

Jim,

Can you imagine the legal liability that would expose you to? Just think,
someone gets injured or dies on a river that you had just graded as a Class
3. All of a sudden the plaintiffs are trying to make it out as a Class 6 and
of course the victim would never have run it except for the fact that you
graded it as something they could do.

I think that's why we won't see any attempts at grading things in the
future.

Steve Holtzman
Southern CA<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Seakayaker wrote:

 > Can you imagine the legal liability that would expose you to? Just think,
 > someone gets injured or dies on a river that you had just graded as a Class
 > 3. All of a sudden the plaintiffs are trying to make it out as a Class 6 and
 > of course the victim would never have run it except for the fact that you
 > graded it as something they could do.
 >
 > I think that's why we won't see any attempts at grading things in the
 > future.

In a particular lawyer infested bit of the US on a very bad day
possibly, but there's been no sign of anyone doing that with climbing
guides here which are every bit as open to the same problems. The
problem with doing it isn't legal action, but knowing you need to do a
good job and not being prepared to make do with a bad one.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.clinch.TakeThisOut@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks 

Lets face it the grading thing is not an objective thing but it should
be.

The grading system is closed and this is its problem. Either the grade
system has to be open ended and so we have grade 7 8 ..And as equipment
and skills improve higher or we have to regularly down grade the rapids
because they are easier now than when they were originally graded many
when the paddlers were in canvas boats. This was tried several years ago
but the general boating public ignored it.

In reality it does not matter because once you get to what is currently
accepted as grade 4 in a kayak then you know what you are doing and can
make an informed choice. Grade 5 is what you are aspiring to and once
you get to that level then you have no real worries about what the grade
is but what the water level is!
--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk
 >> Stay informed about: River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks 

riverman wrote:
 >
 > The interesting thing about western ratings is that there is no numerical
 > classification for 'unrunnable'.

Ehm, having only run a few rivers west of the Appalachians, I think that
you might mistake Grand Canyon ratings for "western rivers" ratings,
Myron. The creeks and rivers I saw up close in Colorado were classified
I to VI, noting that my paddling buddy is from Colorado...


 > Class 10 often is described as "an
 > inexperienced boatman in a good quality boat has less than a 50-50 chance of
 > making it right-side up."

I know a rapid or two that fits this desciption... <big grin>


 > I like the 10-step breakdown, too, since it
 > clears up some of that vast grey area between Class III and Class IV on the
 > traditional grading scale.

Hmmm, that's one of the few level distinctions that I find very clear.
IMO a class III paddler will immediately know when they've hit a IV
rapid. For a class IV (and over) paddler, a line in a class III rapid
will not be anything to note.

 > (and it sounds a lot like Spinal Tap, too.)



--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko.DeleteThis@dse.nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wilko.webzone.ru/" target="_blank">http://wilko.webzone.ru/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks 

Wilko wrote:
 > riverman wrote:
 >
  >>
  >> The interesting thing about western ratings is that there is no numerical
  >> classification for 'unrunnable'.
 >
 >
 > Ehm, having only run a few rivers west of the Appalachians, I think that
 > you might mistake Grand Canyon ratings for "western rivers" ratings,
 > Myron. The creeks and rivers I saw up close in Colorado were classified
 > I to VI, noting that my paddling buddy is from Colorado...


Myron et al, are refering to the "Deseret Scale", which goes from 1-10
and was applied to the Grand Canyon and several other large volume
rivers without difficult rapids. Rumored that 1-10 was for how high the
waves were (in feet) in that rapid.

--Chris<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Wilko" <kayaker.TakeThisOut@zonnet.nl> wrote in message
news:8Nq9b.42339$tK5.5098975@zonnet-reader-1...
 > riverman wrote:
  > >
  > > The interesting thing about western ratings is that there is no
numerical
  > > classification for 'unrunnable'.
 >
 > Ehm, having only run a few rivers west of the Appalachians, I think that
 > you might mistake Grand Canyon ratings for "western rivers" ratings,
 > Myron. The creeks and rivers I saw up close in Colorado were classified
 > I to VI, noting that my paddling buddy is from Colorado...
 >
 >

Hmmm, I guess I missed the gist of your post, then , Wilko. Other than the
Grand Canyon scale (which I have never heard anyone but the Utah Mormons,
novices or marketers refer to as the 'Deseret Scale') there isn't a separate
rating scale for Western Rivers, so you must be referring to how the rivers
are rated? I know that because of geology, geography, plant cover and
relative age, Western water has a completely different 'feel' than Eastern
water, so as a result a Western class 4 can be completely different than an
Eastern class 4. And the nature of the boaters and their skills plays a big
part in that, too. The western boaters are more familar with open, big
water, so 'Carolina Steep Creeks' have been traditionally a challenge.
Eastern boaters are used to manuvering through rock gardens, so the
traditional '40 foot wave' is a real challenge to them. Also, the
familiarity with the types of boats plays a real role.
I once heard this summary, which is pretty good:

Back when the Americas were settled (from East to West), the natives in the
East used canoes as essential transportation, so from the earliest days,
everyone in the East had canoes and were taking them through the tightest of
spots, rather than take the time to portage. As people got more adventuous,
they began running more technical rivers in canoes, and the recreation
industry developed to support this, with durable boats and paddling gear,
and the right techniques.
The western natives, OTOH, did not run their rivers because they didn't take
them anywhere they wanted to go, and in many cases the rivers were hard to
access. That was, until after WW2, when a surplus of army rafts became
available and people started taking them on rivers for recreation. Rafts
have never been 'essential transportation'.

As a result, eastern rivers are rated for canoes, and eastern boaters have
grown up with hard boats as part of their culture for 250 years. Western
rivers are rated for rafts, and western boaters have had rafts are part of
their culture for 50 years. It wasn't until the mid 70s that the two started
to mix: some eastern boaters brought canoes to the west and started running
the big and small rivers (hey, *I* even managed to bag a first descent!) and
some western boaters brought rafts to the east and started running the
narrow rivers.

As a result, the very foundations of the east vs. west rating system is
different. The boats, the culture surrounding the boats, the 'genetic
resonance' of the boaters, and the entire outlook on the style of water is
different.

Is that what you meant?

--riverman<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks 

"riverman" <nospam.TakeThisOut@sorry.com> typed
 >
 > The interesting thing about western ratings is that there is no numerical
 > classification for 'unrunnable'. Class 10 often is described as "an
 > inexperienced boatman in a good quality boat has less than a 50-50 chance of
 > making it right-side up." I like the 10-step breakdown, too, since it
 > clears up some of that vast grey area between Class III and Class IV on the
 > traditional grading scale.

Myron, I think you bin away from home to long. As far as I know there
is no "western" 10-step scale in the US any longer. The only 10-step
scale I know about is the "Grand Canyon Scale", applied only on the
Grand Canyon, as an historical artifact.

The Class 10 you describe could only conceivably apply to rafts and
dories (only guessing about the latter, since I have no experience
with dories). I would say that, in the 6-step International Scale of
River Difficulty, which we and the Europeans try to follow, an
inexperienced kayaker or canoeist in a good quality boat would have
less than 50% chance of making it through a Class III rapid right-side
up. (In fact, the ratings map very closely to skill levels:
I-Beginner, II-Novice, III-Intermediate, IV-Advanced, V-Expert,
VI-God).

Which brings up a problem, and perhaps the reason the 10-step scale
has fallen into disuse: if the rating of the rapid must be changed to
suit the craft, then you are not actually rating the rapid, *per se*,
you are rating the rapid/craft combination. By contemporary thinking,
the difficulty of a rapid should be intrinsic to the rapid, measured
by objective criteria, and irrelevant to the nature of any craft that
might attempt the rapid.

I think.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
======================================================================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
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 >> Stay informed about: River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks 

To get back to the original post. the numbers could be simply correct.Take
the Zambezi, I believe beginners are taken down grade 5 in rafts on the
Zambezi and if your safety boater was Alex Nicks then he could well be up
for grade 6 after tea!

"ZattleBone" <Zattlebone DeleteThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4b13ec17.0309110111.79d2aa6f@posting.google.com...
 > Anyone know the differences in the two grading systems?
 >
 > A friend has just come back from South Africa where (as a complete
 > rafting novice) he was running Grade 5. The kayakers supporting the
 > raft all went off to do a Grade 6 run in the afternoon. The numbers
 > seem a bit high to me.
 >
 > Any ideas? Is a grade 6 raft-rapid actually a grade 4/5 kayak-run?
 >
 > Zatt.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks 

To get back to the original query
Maybe these grades are not that high. take the Zambezi. I believe beginners
are regularly taken down grade 5 rapids here and if your safety boater was
Alex Nicks then he could well be up for grade 6 after tea !

"ZattleBone" <Zattlebone.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4b13ec17.0309110111.79d2aa6f@posting.google.com...
 > Anyone know the differences in the two grading systems?
 >
 > A friend has just come back from South Africa where (as a complete
 > rafting novice) he was running Grade 5. The kayakers supporting the
 > raft all went off to do a Grade 6 run in the afternoon. The numbers
 > seem a bit high to me.
 >
 > Any ideas? Is a grade 6 raft-rapid actually a grade 4/5 kayak-run?
 >
 > Zatt.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: River Grades - Rafts vs Kayaks