Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:23:19 -0600, Donnie Gilliland wrote:

 > I'm constructing a 10" tunnel hull and am at the point where I need to
 > seal/finish the interior of the hull before putting the decking on. The
 > boat is not going to be left out in the elements or used in saltwater but
 > will be stored indoors when not used.
 > My question to the group is this, can I use a good grade of spar varnish to
 > seal the interior or would the epoxy encapsulation be the better choice? (I
 > plan on using epoxy and fiberglass on the hull exterior).
 >
Epoxy!
My boat is 18+ years old now with no rot problems as far as I know.
The last then years it has been outdoor 356 day / year at N 59+.
Please explore: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://hem.bredband.net/b262106/" target="_blank">http://hem.bredband.net/b262106/</a>

 > Any brands of varnish or epoxy to suggest?

You don't need brand name epoxy. I have used a local (Swedish) make.
A little more research is needed if you go down that route rather
than the brand name route.

Good luck,

--
====================================================================
Martin Schöön                    "Problems worthy of attack
                                  prove their worth by hitting back"
                                                           Piet Hein
====================================================================<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 14:37:27 -0500, "ddinc"
<dobroth.RemoveThis@erols.com> wrote:

 >Be aware that epoxy will deteriorate under sunlight
 >and needs a UV (exterior varnish or other) coating.
 >
 >"Donnie Gilliland" <drgilli.RemoveThis@charter.net> wrote in message
 >news:WYlud.24$yt7.16@fe03.lga...
  >> I'm constructing a 10" tunnel hull and am at the point where I need to
  >> seal/finish the interior of the hull before putting the decking on. The
  >> boat is not going to be left out in the elements or used in saltwater but
  >> will be stored indoors when not used.
  >> My question to the group is this, can I use a good grade of spar varnish
  >> to
  >> seal the interior or would the epoxy encapsulation be the better choice?
  >> (I
  >> plan on using epoxy and fiberglass on the hull exterior).
  >>
  >> Any brands of varnish or epoxy to suggest?
  >> Any suggestions?
  >>
  >> Thanks in advance
  >> Don
  >>
  >>
 >
I've used epoxy with good success. However, in a recent set of plans I
purchased for a small boat, the designer suggested an oil finish
inside the boat because it is much easier to maintain since it is
usually difficult to refinish inside a boat. A good compromise might
be to epoxy encapsulate any hidden or inaccessable areas and use a
marine oil finish on interior exposed areas. In any case, varnish
would be a bad idea because maintenance would be high. West Epoxy has
never let me down.

Dick R.
Wilmington,NC<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

I'd argue that the coating systems on both sides of a panel should be of
similar permeability. So, don't glass one side of a panel and coat the other
side with oil or you'll get some very odd (potato chip) contours .
Epoxy sticks tenaciously, but can't stand sunlight for long and doesn't level
out as well as paints or varnishes. So don't think of it as a finish, except
in private places where it will not receive sunlight. . As a binder under a
varnish or paint finish, it's excellent. Two coats are enough. Take the care
to roll & brush it out a smoothly as you can, 'cuz it's a lot of work to sand
flat.
The brand of epoxy will provoke a long religious argument, as will brands of
varnish.
Do use a true marine varnish. If it isn't at least $20/qt, it isn't the good
stuff. The paint store stuff doesn't have either the resilience or the UV
filters.

Donnie Gilliland wrote:

 > I'm constructing a 10" tunnel hull and am at the point where I need to
 > seal/finish the interior of the hull before putting the decking on. The
 > boat is not going to be left out in the elements or used in saltwater but
 > will be stored indoors when not used.
 > My question to the group is this, can I use a good grade of spar varnish to
 > seal the interior or would the epoxy encapsulation be the better choice? (I
 > plan on using epoxy and fiberglass on the hull exterior).
 >
 > Any brands of varnish or epoxy to suggest?
 > Any suggestions?
 >
 > Thanks in advance
 > Don<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

The boat's next owner may not be able to store it indoors. All the wood
boats I've owned have had linseed oil interiors but people prefer
epoxy encapsulation because it requires lasts a long time without any
maintenance. The first boat I bought already had and oiled interior and
the small ones I build since are made cheap, not expected to last a long
time, and so small maintneance is not time consuming.


--
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 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:23:19 -0600, Donnie Gilliland wrote:

 > I'm constructing a 10" tunnel hull and am at the point where I need to
 > seal/finish the interior of the hull before putting the decking on. The
 > boat is not going to be left out in the elements or used in saltwater but
 > will be stored indoors when not used.
 > My question to the group is this, can I use a good grade of spar varnish to
 > seal the interior or would the epoxy encapsulation be the better choice? (I
 > plan on using epoxy and fiberglass on the hull exterior).
 >
 > Any brands of varnish or epoxy to suggest?
 > Any suggestions?
 >
 > Thanks in advance
 > Don

I would not cover wood with epoxy without putting something on top of the
epoxy, because epoxy clouds slowly over time. You could, perhaps, use two
coats of epoxy with a varnish on top of that. Be sure to do a test panel
to make sure that the varnish will cure properly over the epoxy.

I have done this before. It especially works well for flat horizontal
surfaces where you can really build up the epoxy. Sometimes a blow-dryer
or hot air gun can help the epoxy flow, and help get rid of tiny bubbles.

--Mac<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

The epoxy will only cloud if it's in the sun. It's difficult to get it to lay
smooth, so for interior areas where a decent finish is wanted, additional finish
is needed. For lockers, bilges, etc. where appearance isn't important and the
sun don't shine, you can stop after a decent cooating has been achieved.
For some interior joinery, i'll sometimes pre-coat sheets of plywood before
cutting parts out. Makes finishing easier.

Mac wrote:

 > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:23:19 -0600, Donnie Gilliland wrote:
 >
  > > I'm constructing a 10" tunnel hull and am at the point where I need to
  > > seal/finish the interior of the hull before putting the decking on. The
  > > boat is not going to be left out in the elements or used in saltwater but
  > > will be stored indoors when not used.
  > > My question to the group is this, can I use a good grade of spar varnish to
  > > seal the interior or would the epoxy encapsulation be the better choice? (I
  > > plan on using epoxy and fiberglass on the hull exterior).
  > >
  > > Any brands of varnish or epoxy to suggest?
  > > Any suggestions?
  > >
  > > Thanks in advance
  > > Don
 >
 > I would not cover wood with epoxy without putting something on top of the
 > epoxy, because epoxy clouds slowly over time. You could, perhaps, use two
 > coats of epoxy with a varnish on top of that. Be sure to do a test panel
 > to make sure that the varnish will cure properly over the epoxy.
 >
 > I have done this before. It especially works well for flat horizontal
 > surfaces where you can really build up the epoxy. Sometimes a blow-dryer
 > or hot air gun can help the epoxy flow, and help get rid of tiny bubbles.
 >
 > --Mac<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

Solvent thin the first coat or two of epoxy for better penetration and bonding -
especially along edges, etc. Just about any solvent will work. Thin 15 - 25 % or so.
A little bit of solvent will greatly lower the viscosity.

you could also use an epoxy paint instead of an raw epoxy resin - would gain color,
less sag, more film thickness, possibly more flex. Priced about the same as the
resin to double the price.

I would even do the thinning thing if using varnish. - picked that tip up from a
custom wooden kayak maker......


regards
paul oman
progressive epoxy polymers
---------


Jim Conlin wrote:

 > The epoxy will only cloud if it's in the sun. It's difficult to get it to lay
 > smooth, so for interior areas where a decent finish is wanted, additional finish
 > is needed. For lockers, bilges, etc. where appearance isn't important and the
 > sun don't shine, you can stop after a decent cooating has been achieved.
 > For some interior joinery, i'll sometimes pre-coat sheets of plywood before
 > cutting parts out. Makes finishing easier.
 >
 > Mac wrote:
 >
  > > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:23:19 -0600, Donnie Gilliland wrote:
  > >
   > > > I'm constructing a 10" tunnel hull and am at the point where I need to
   > > > seal/finish the interior of the hull before putting the decking on. The
   > > > boat is not going to be left out in the elements or used in saltwater but
   > > > will be stored indoors when not used.
   > > > My question to the group is this, can I use a good grade of spar varnish to
   > > > seal the interior or would the epoxy encapsulation be the better choice? (I
   > > > plan on using epoxy and fiberglass on the hull exterior).
   > > >
   > > > Any brands of varnish or epoxy to suggest?
   > > > Any suggestions?
   > > >
   > > > Thanks in advance
   > > > Don
  > >
  > > I would not cover wood with epoxy without putting something on top of the
  > > epoxy, because epoxy clouds slowly over time. You could, perhaps, use two
  > > coats of epoxy with a varnish on top of that. Be sure to do a test panel
  > > to make sure that the varnish will cure properly over the epoxy.
  > >
  > > I have done this before. It especially works well for flat horizontal
  > > surfaces where you can really build up the epoxy. Sometimes a blow-dryer
  > > or hot air gun can help the epoxy flow, and help get rid of tiny bubbles.
  > >
  > > --Mac




--


"Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include
a free trip around the Sun every year."


============================================
PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.
Frog Pond Hollow - 48 Wildwood Dr
Pittsfield NH 03263
10-4 Monday-Thur EST 603-435-7199
VISA/MC/Discover/Paypal
info DeleteThis @epoxyproducts.com
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.epoxyproducts.com" target="_blank">http://www.epoxyproducts.com</a>
sign-up for free email newsletter!
============================================<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

I'm not sure whether thinning epoxy is such a good idea until I see lab test data on how
perneable the resultant finish id. It's certainly true that thinned epoxy is measurably
degraded in strength. You can drastically improve the spreadability of epoxy with heat-
a heat lamp or a heat gun.

Paul Oman wrote:

 > Solvent thin the first coat or two of epoxy for better penetration and bonding -
 > especially along edges, etc. Just about any solvent will work. Thin 15 - 25 % or so.
 > A little bit of solvent will greatly lower the viscosity.
 >
 > you could also use an epoxy paint instead of an raw epoxy resin - would gain color,
 > less sag, more film thickness, possibly more flex. Priced about the same as the
 > resin to double the price.
 >
 > I would even do the thinning thing if using varnish. - picked that tip up from a
 > custom wooden kayak maker......
 >
 > regards
 > paul oman
 > progressive epoxy polymers
 > ---------
 >
 > Jim Conlin wrote:
 >
  > > The epoxy will only cloud if it's in the sun. It's difficult to get it to lay
  > > smooth, so for interior areas where a decent finish is wanted, additional finish
  > > is needed. For lockers, bilges, etc. where appearance isn't important and the
  > > sun don't shine, you can stop after a decent cooating has been achieved.
  > > For some interior joinery, i'll sometimes pre-coat sheets of plywood before
  > > cutting parts out. Makes finishing easier.
  > >
  > > Mac wrote:
  > >
   > > > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:23:19 -0600, Donnie Gilliland wrote:
   > > >
   > > > > I'm constructing a 10" tunnel hull and am at the point where I need to
   > > > > seal/finish the interior of the hull before putting the decking on. The
   > > > > boat is not going to be left out in the elements or used in saltwater but
   > > > > will be stored indoors when not used.
   > > > > My question to the group is this, can I use a good grade of spar varnish to
   > > > > seal the interior or would the epoxy encapsulation be the better choice? (I
   > > > > plan on using epoxy and fiberglass on the hull exterior).
   > > > >
   > > > > Any brands of varnish or epoxy to suggest?
   > > > > Any suggestions?
   > > > >
   > > > > Thanks in advance
   > > > > Don
   > > >
   > > > I would not cover wood with epoxy without putting something on top of the
   > > > epoxy, because epoxy clouds slowly over time. You could, perhaps, use two
   > > > coats of epoxy with a varnish on top of that. Be sure to do a test panel
   > > > to make sure that the varnish will cure properly over the epoxy.
   > > >
   > > > I have done this before. It especially works well for flat horizontal
   > > > surfaces where you can really build up the epoxy. Sometimes a blow-dryer
   > > > or hot air gun can help the epoxy flow, and help get rid of tiny bubbles.
   > > >
   > > > --Mac
 >
 > --
 >
 > "Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include
 > a free trip around the Sun every year."
 >
 > ============================================
 > PAUL OMAN Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc.
 > Frog Pond Hollow - 48 Wildwood Dr
 > Pittsfield NH 03263
 > 10-4 Monday-Thur EST 603-435-7199
 > VISA/MC/Discover/Paypal
 > info.RemoveThis@epoxyproducts.com
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.epoxyproducts.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.epoxyproducts.com</font</a>>
 > sign-up for free email newsletter!
 > ============================================<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:47:37 +0000, Paul Oman wrote:

 > Solvent thin the first coat or two of epoxy for better penetration and bonding -
 > especially along edges, etc. Just about any solvent will work. Thin 15 - 25 % or so.
 > A little bit of solvent will greatly lower the viscosity.

My advice to anyone attempting this is to measure the quantity of diluent
carefully, and test the resulting mixture before using it to coat anything
important. Sometimes adding solvent to epoxy will cause it not to cure
properly, and of course, the physical properties will be affected.

--Mac<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

Mac wrote:
 > On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:23:19 -0600, Donnie Gilliland wrote:
 > I would not cover wood with epoxy without putting something on top of the
 > epoxy, because epoxy clouds slowly over time. You could, perhaps, use two
 > coats of epoxy with a varnish on top of that. Be sure to do a test panel
 > to make sure that the varnish will cure properly over the epoxy.

True, one WILL need to cover even UV-resistant epoxy with varnish/paint
for UV protection. Besides, the glossy surface is what keeps most the UV
out - and as much of the UV that slips through the varnish, needs to be
reflected from the invisible border between epoxy and varnish, which
also is the (one more) reason why first sanding shouldn't be more coarse
than necessary.

I, like most people, had to listen for advices. After consulting
Epifanes, Hempel and others, this is what I boiled it down to.:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://menzi.dk/html/varnish.html" target="_blank">http://menzi.dk/html/varnish.html</a>

And how it turned out:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://menzi.dk/gfx/maxi/irene_storm.jpg" target="_blank">http://menzi.dk/gfx/maxi/irene_storm.jpg</a>

I got a very informative transcript (in Danish) from Georgia McDonald,
Woodenboats - I suppose it exists in English as well.

One Ocean Kayaks got a test panel, with NO varnish I believe.



My correspondance with a vendor:

Date: 2004-06-01 14:46:42 -0400 (Tue)
From: "Doug Theobalds" <dt DeleteThis @epifanes.com>
Reply-to: <dt DeleteThis @epifanes.com>
To: "steen" <bondos DeleteThis @paradis.dk>
Subject: RE: PU varnish on epoxy ?
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Any of the two-part Polyurethanes will offer the best in adhesion and
hardness over epoxy. Ensure that the Amine blush has been removed from
the epoxy. As long as the surface is clean, dry , and sanded, apply full
strength.

Doug Theobalds
70 Water Street
Thomaston, ME 04861
207.354.0804
fax. 207.354.0387
* Epifanes North America Inc.
* Gebo North America Inc.
* Mastervolt USA Inc.
* Rowable Classics
* Stazo Marine Equip. NA Inc.
* Van de Stadt Timber Inc.


-----Original Message-----
From: steen [mailto:bondos@paradis.dk]
Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 4:11 PM
To: sales DeleteThis @epifanes.com
Subject: PU varnish on epoxy ?



Hello,

What is your recommandated procedure regarding PU varnishing on
epoxy..?? As painting on epoxy??

It's for a stripbuilt kayak.

Cheers
--
steen - menzi.dk
    Ready for OpenOffice?
---



Date: 2004-06-02 09:02:10 -0400 (Wed)
From: "Doug Theobalds" <dt DeleteThis @epifanes.com>
Reply-to: <dt DeleteThis @epifanes.com>
To: "steen" <bondos DeleteThis @paradis.dk>
Subject: RE: PU varnish on epoxy ?
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
  > Any of the two-part Polyurethanes will offer the best in adhesion and
  > hardness over epoxy. Ensure that the Amine blush has been removed from

  > the epoxy. As long as the surface is clean, dry , and sanded, apply
  > full strength.

Cheers - but I'll be a bit more specific then:

What grit to use for sanding before first layer varnish..??

220 grit wet or dry

How many layers in total..??

Two if paint. 4 if varnish.

What grit to use before last layer..?? (don't plan on sanding between
layers)

320 grit wet or dry is sufficient prior to final coat.

Thanks again, and sorry for not being more specific in my first letter.
--
steen - menzi.dk
    Ready for OpenOffice?
---





 > Sometimes a blow-dryer
 > or hot air gun can help the epoxy flow, and help get rid of tiny bubbles.

I'll try to keep this in mind!! Cheers!!

Hygge
--
steen - menzi.dk
  I have a beam of light to catch.
---<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:47:37 +0000, Paul Oman wrote:

 > Solvent thin the first coat or two of epoxy for better penetration and bonding -
 > especially along edges, etc. Just about any solvent will work. Thin 15 - 25 % or so.
 > A little bit of solvent will greatly lower the viscosity.
 >
Hmmm, to me the idea of adding solvent to epoxy doesn't sound too
good. The basic idea behind encapsulating wood in solvent free
epoxy rather than just varnish is to get a vapour-tight seal
around the wood. (Yes I know it won't be strictly vapour-tight but
it is orders of magnitude better than any varnish). Adding a solvent
may make the epoxy porous.

If you really want lower viscosity you could either buy an epoxy
that has low viscosity all by itself or you can heat it up to say
30C or so. If you for heating the epoxy you should choose a
type that has a long pot life or work with small batches.

A somewhat risky but simple alternative is to 'heat-gun' the surfaces
right after applying epoxy. Don't overdo it. There should be no smell
or fumes!

--
====================================================================
Martin Schöön                    "Problems worthy of attack
                                  prove their worth by hitting back"
                                                           Piet Hein
====================================================================<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

I beleive System Three says you can dilute their epoxy by 5% by volume
for better penetration of the BASE coat of epoxy to seal the wood grain.
The amount you can dilute may vary by brand.

You then proceed with other coats of epoxy for lamination undiluted. I
tried this once before with using the resin as a cheap rot-fix for a
rotting window frame. It worked pretty good but took longer to cure.

What worked the best was a combination of diluting the resin, heating
the wood to be treated, and warming the epoxy. Heating the wood works
the best but is not always easy.

--
Matt
JEM Watercraft
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.jemwatercraft.com/" target="_blank">http://www.jemwatercraft.com/</a>


Martin Schöön wrote:
 > On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:47:37 +0000, Paul Oman wrote:
 >
 >
  >>Solvent thin the first coat or two of epoxy for better penetration and bonding -
  >>especially along edges, etc. Just about any solvent will work. Thin 15 - 25 % or so.
  >>A little bit of solvent will greatly lower the viscosity.
  >>
 >
 > Hmmm, to me the idea of adding solvent to epoxy doesn't sound too
 > good. The basic idea behind encapsulating wood in solvent free
 > epoxy rather than just varnish is to get a vapour-tight seal
 > around the wood. (Yes I know it won't be strictly vapour-tight but
 > it is orders of magnitude better than any varnish). Adding a solvent
 > may make the epoxy porous.
 >
 > If you really want lower viscosity you could either buy an epoxy
 > that has low viscosity all by itself or you can heat it up to say
 > 30C or so. If you for heating the epoxy you should choose a
 > type that has a long pot life or work with small batches.
 >
 > A somewhat risky but simple alternative is to 'heat-gun' the surfaces
 > right after applying epoxy. Don't overdo it. There should be no smell
 > or fumes!
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation 

If the epoxy is going on the interior before the deck is installed as
noted in the original posting, then UV protection is not needed.

The problem on the interior is to *increase* the viscosity of the resin so
it will not run down the sides, not to make it more runny.

Epoxy resin will never be a smooth coat like paint or varnish but it is
more duarable and maintnenace free. A lot of environmentally unfriendly
sanding is required to get a smooth surface. Linseed oil has to be
recoated more frequently than paint, especially on open boats like mine
are. But on open boats it's much easier to recoat. On the one decked
wooden boat I owned with an oiled interior I had to squeeze way in under
the cockpit sole to coat the inside at the rear. Not a job for the
clausdrophobic sailor.

Note that wood encapsulation using epoxy requires *three* layers of epoxy
saturated cloth (see "Elements of Boat Strength"). If it's a small
lightweight design (this doesn't sound like a small boat) encapsulation
can add appreciably to the overall weight of the boat (not to mention the
cost

Decisions, decisions....

--
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 >> Stay informed about: Spar varnish or epoxy encapsulation