Yanmar or Westerbeke?

This is an interesting question, and one that will lead you down
several paths.

The choice is not simply limited to 'W' or 'Y', there are a host of
other, well respected marine diesel engines in the 40 hp range.

For the latest technology (vis-a-vis emmission standards), the
Volswagen SDI 40-4 looks really impressive:

http://www.vw-m.de/index.php?L=1&id=10

Trouble may be availability and parts, especially in the US.

Vetus den Ouden marinizes Mitsubishi engines, and Vetus has a very
good US distribution network.

See: http://www.frenchmarine.com/Product.aspx?PID=617&CID=20

Beta Marine, Phasor Marine and (I believe) the Universal subsidiary of
Westerbeke are Kubota blocks which is why all of their '42 hp' engines
have exactly the same bore / stroke / displacement.

Your choice between these three then comes down to ancillary items,
like size of alternator, etc and ultimately, price.

I saw these guy at Annapolis last year, and was impressed with the
construction :

http://www.lombardinimarine.com/inglese/homeing.htm

(see their LDW 1404 M), and there are quite a few distributors in the
US.

And we haven't even gotten to Volvo...

Repowering always involves modifying the engine bed, since the
'footprint' of the replacement engine is never the same as the old
beast you're removing.

Have fun, and let us know what you decide. One last tip: Visit a
large boat show, and get a 'show price' - could save you 10 - 15% off
what your yard might charge...

MW
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

On Sep 13, 8:39 pm, mike.e.worr... RemoveThis @abc.com wrote:
> This is an interesting question, and one that will lead you down
> several paths.
>
> The choice is not simply limited to 'W' or 'Y', there are a host of
> other, well respected marine diesel engines in the 40 hp range.
>
> For the latest technology (vis-a-vis emmission standards), the
> Volswagen SDI 40-4 looks really impressive:
>
> http://www.vw-m.de/index.php?L=1&id=10
>
> Trouble may be availability and parts, especially in the US.
>
> Vetus den Ouden marinizes Mitsubishi engines, and Vetus has a very
> good US distribution network.
>
> See: http://www.frenchmarine.com/Product.aspx?PID=617&CID=20
>
> Beta Marine, Phasor Marine and (I believe) the Universal subsidiary of
> Westerbeke are Kubota blocks which is why all of their '42 hp' engines
> have exactly the same bore / stroke / displacement.
>
> Your choice between these three then comes down to ancillary items,
> like size of alternator, etc and ultimately, price.
>
> I saw these guy at Annapolis last year, and was impressed with the
> construction :
>
> http://www.lombardinimarine.com/inglese/homeing.htm
>
> (see their LDW 1404 M), and there are quite a few distributors in the
> US.
>
> And we haven't even gotten to Volvo...
>
> Repowering always involves modifying the engine bed, since the
> 'footprint' of the replacement engine is never the same as the old
> beast you're removing.
>
> Have fun, and let us know what you decide. One last tip: Visit a
> large boat show, and get a 'show price' - could save you 10 - 15% off
> what your yard might charge...
>
> MW

Hi Mike,

Many thanks for your detailed response. I am concerned about service
& support in the less well-established brands. Having owned too many
products and product lines that were abandoned by their makers, it's
hard to get excited about putting some these options in a boat I
expect to own a long time. But the Volkswagen product looks very
interesting; I will investigate that further. I couldn't find anything
in the Volvo line of the appropriate HP that wasn't a saildrive or a
Penta. But back to the original question: if you had to choose
between Y or W, which would it be?

Thanks again.
Jeff
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

"daddyo" wrote

> But the Volkswagen product looks very
> interesting; I will investigate that further.

First thing you want to check is VW is still using a rubber timing
belt.

You change them at 60,000 miles in a car. Don't know what the change
interval is in a boat, but I'll pass.

Kubota has industrial parts distributors world wide with prices well
below marine distribution.

> I couldn't find anything
> in the Volvo line of the appropriate HP that wasn't a saildrive or a
> Penta.

First time you have to get Volvo parts, you will have an experience
you don't want to have again.

Lew
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

daddyo wrote:
> I've got a 1966 Hinckley Pilot with a 1978 Westerbeke 40 HP diesel
> that is probably on its last legs. Would much appreciate anyone's
> wisdom/experience on choosing a replacement diesel. My yard is
> recommending another Westerbeke but all the sailors I talk to say
> Yanmar.
>


Why wouldn't you simply rebuild the one you have?

That said, a friend of mine who decided not to rebuild a Peugeot diesel
says the Westerbeke he just bought is Self-Bleeding. Having spent many
hours doing that process on an elderly Perkins 4-107, seems pretty
intriguing. Plus a new Westerbeke should fit where the other comes out?

Jonathan

--
I am building my daughter an Argie 10 sailing dinghy, check it out:
http://home.comcast.net/~jonsailr
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

Jeff:

A bit of additional research on my part reveals that the Westerbeke
44B Four and the Vetus M 4.17 are the same Mitsubishi block... the
Mitsubishi is, in fact 'self-bleeding' (I own one) which is a nice
feature but perhaps not one to base a decision on

Don't get confused at the Volvo site; all of their photos show the
engine attached to a saildrive, but all are in reality equally
available with standard marine transmissions. Your best bet seems to
be...

http://www.volvo.com/NR/rdonlyres/EE5EE400-DFF1-4B0A-B6C6-5100F8A3BEB8...D240.pd

Volvo has a reputation for expensive parts, *but* their engines are
now made by Perkins which has a long and proud tradition of rock solid
diesel engines. Want proof? Note the displacement / bore / stroke of
the Volvo in the above .pdf with the Perkins model 404D-15 here:

http://www.perkins.com/cda/layout?m=97265&x=7

So, if Volvo is simply 'marinizing' a Perkins, and if Perkins parts
are widely available and resonably priced, why shy away? Too, the
Volvo has a whopping 115 Amp alternator as standard equipment... which
is a nice feature, but perhaps not one to base a decision on

I believe Yanmar makes a fine product, and unlike all of the above,
it's *their own* product, i.e. they aren't 'marinizing' someone else's
block - it's a Yanmar from tip to tail. This might be considered a
good thing by some, and a bad thing by others.

My suggestion would be to print out the various spec sheets available
from these manufacturers for the 40+/- hp engines, grab a highlighter
and start making notes.

With a few hours study, you'll be well on your way to making a
informed decision, which will give you a leg up when it comes time to
buy.

Let us know what you decide, and - perhaps more importantly - why!

MW
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

On Sep 14, 3:37 am, mike.e.worr... DeleteThis @abc.com wrote:
> Jeff:
>
> A bit of additional research on my part reveals that the Westerbeke
> 44B Four and the Vetus M 4.17 are the same Mitsubishi block... the
> Mitsubishi is, in fact 'self-bleeding' (I own one) which is a nice
> feature but perhaps not one to base a decision on
>
> Don't get confused at the Volvo site; all of their photos show the
> engine attached to a saildrive, but all are in reality equally
> available with standard marine transmissions. Your best bet seems to
> be...
>
> http://www.volvo.com/NR/rdonlyres/EE5EE400-DFF1-4B0A-B6C6-5100F8A3BEB...
>
> Volvo has a reputation for expensive parts, *but* their engines are
> now made by Perkins which has a long and proud tradition of rock solid
> diesel engines. Want proof? Note the displacement / bore / stroke of
> the Volvo in the above .pdf with the Perkins model 404D-15 here:
>
> http://www.perkins.com/cda/layout?m=97265&x=7
>
> So, if Volvo is simply 'marinizing' a Perkins, and if Perkins parts
> are widely available and resonably priced, why shy away? Too, the
> Volvo has a whopping 115 Amp alternator as standard equipment... which
> is a nice feature, but perhaps not one to base a decision on
>
> I believe Yanmar makes a fine product, and unlike all of the above,
> it's *their own* product, i.e. they aren't 'marinizing' someone else's
> block - it's a Yanmar from tip to tail. This might be considered a
> good thing by some, and a bad thing by others.
>
> My suggestion would be to print out the various spec sheets available
> from these manufacturers for the 40+/- hp engines, grab a highlighter
> and start making notes.
>
> With a few hours study, you'll be well on your way to making a
> informed decision, which will give you a leg up when it comes time to
> buy.
>
> Let us know what you decide, and - perhaps more importantly - why!
>
> MW

Am not sure why Hodgett does not like Yanmar. I have had two and they
are the most reliable machines I have ever seen.
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

"Frogwatch" wrote:

> Am not sure why Hodgett does not like Yanmar. I have had two and
they
> are the most reliable machines I have ever seen.


I was the proud owner of a YSM12, a one lung, raw water cooled beast
that snapped engine mount studs as frequently as some people change
their underwear.

Finally had to install an AquaDrive system to isolate the engine from
the boat hull and eliminate the snapping studs problem.

Little did I realize until much later that Yanmar had withdrawn the
YSM12 from the marine market and my builder had evidently picked up my
engine at a close out sale.

Had the boat 11 years, and that YSM12 was a PITA the entire time.

Today's Yanmar product is a high RPM, low weight unit designed for the
power boat market, not a low RPM, high torque unit designed for a
sailboat application.

Yanmar has figured out the the power boat market spends money and the
sail boat market talks everything to death, but doesn't spend any
money.

Lew
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

Well daddyo,

You have some choices. One thing that nobody has mentioned here is
serviceability. I did sail an H40 and a pilot years back, but do not
remember them well enough to help with this part at all.

Before you commit to buy anything, get the install drawings and the
owner's manual at least on loan. Locate the parts that will require
regular attention and make sure that when what ever you choose is
installed - you can actually see, reach and deal with these parts. In
this group is always the fuel and oil filters, priming pump and
bleeders, accessory drive belts and tensioners, and - of course - the
lube oil dipstick.

Westerbeke and Universal (now the same company) have not built their own
engine in about 30 years (since the end of the U4). Westerbeke used to
retag Perkins and Most of the Universals have been marinized Kubota.
The saving grace with both of these is the company's capability to
provide spares.

A 29yo Westerbeke(Perkins) is just not all that old - really. Why don't
you hunt around for a shop that might overhaul it. Get said shop to
write up a complete order. The parts are expensive on automotive terms,
but they also are not automotive parts. All of the commercial engines
are built for a 4-5khr life. As an auxiliary in a sloop, you could be
close to that in 30 years. All it might take is rings, bearings, a
valve grind and injector clean and reshim to be back to running like a
new engine.

Fair Wind and Smooth Sea
Matt Colie
Lifelong Waterman, Licensed Mariner and Congenital Sailor


daddyo wrote:
> I've got a 1966 Hinckley Pilot with a 1978 Westerbeke 40 HP diesel
> that is probably on its last legs. Would much appreciate anyone's
> wisdom/experience on choosing a replacement diesel. My yard is
> recommending another Westerbeke but all the sailors I talk to say
> Yanmar.
>
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

On Sep 14, 2:01 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <lewhodg... DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Frogwatch" wrote:
> > Am not sure why Hodgett does not like Yanmar. I have had two and
> they
> > are the most reliable machines I have ever seen.
>
> I was the proud owner of a YSM12, a one lung, raw water cooled beast
> that snapped engine mount studs as frequently as some people change
> their underwear.
>
> Finally had to install an AquaDrive system to isolate the engine from
> the boat hull and eliminate the snapping studs problem.
>
> Little did I realize until much later that Yanmar had withdrawn the
> YSM12 from the marine market and my builder had evidently picked up my
> engine at a close out sale.
>
> Had the boat 11 years, and that YSM12 was a PITA the entire time.
>
> Today's Yanmar product is a high RPM, low weight unit designed for the
> power boat market, not a low RPM, high torque unit designed for a
> sailboat application.
>
> Yanmar has figured out the the power boat market spends money and the
> sail boat market talks everything to death, but doesn't spend any
> money.
>
> Lew

I have a friend with a YSM12 in his 27' sailboat. He installed it
himself so maybe he does not have stock mounts. My old 1GM broke a
mount but I never got around to fixing it for 9 yrs and never had
another prob with it. That little engine sounded like the African
Queen but in 9 yrs started EVERY time no matter what. It was also
very easy to work on. I thought it was a great piece of engineering
but at 6.5 hp, a little small for my 7700 lb S2. So, I found a use
2GM (13 hp) and I think it is also wonderful (installed it myself). I
admit, this is only two data points.
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

"Frogwatch" wrote:

> I have a friend with a YSM12 in his 27' sailboat. He installed it
> himself so maybe he does not have stock mounts.

I don't think there ever were any "stock" mounts. If it worked, it worked.

> That little engine sounded like the African
> Queen but in 9 yrs started EVERY time no matter what.

You betcha. Thought about Hepburn and Bogie everytime that little beast was
at idle.

Could point upstream and idle in place against about a 1-2 knot current at
less than 1,000 engine RPM..

> It was also
> very easy to work on. I thought it was a great piece of engineering
> but at 6.5 hp, a little small for my 7700 lb S2.

Nice boat.

So, I found a use
> 2GM (13 hp) and I think it is also wonderful (installed it myself).

Different engine.

The YSM8/12 were great inustrial engines, not so great as marine units.

The points remains that today's Yanmar product line is a light weight, high
RPM family much like the old VWs.

Works well in a hight speed power boat, not so well in a sailboat which
needs high torque, low RPM.

Lew
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

On Sep 16, 12:34 am, "Lew Hodgett" <lewhodg....TakeThisOut@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "Frogwatch" wrote:
> > I have a friend with a YSM12 in his 27' sailboat. He installed it
> > himself so maybe he does not have stock mounts.
>
> I don't think there ever were any "stock" mounts. If it worked, it worked.
>
> > That little engine sounded like the African
> > Queen but in 9 yrs started EVERY time no matter what.
>
> You betcha. Thought about Hepburn and Bogie everytime that little beast was
> at idle.
>
> Could point upstream and idle in place against about a 1-2 knot current at
> less than 1,000 engine RPM..
>
> > It was also
> > very easy to work on. I thought it was a great piece of engineering
> > but at 6.5 hp, a little small for my 7700 lb S2.
>
> Nice boat.
>
> So, I found a use
>
> > 2GM (13 hp) and I think it is also wonderful (installed it myself).
>
> Different engine.
>
> The YSM8/12 were great inustrial engines, not so great as marine units.
>
> The points remains that today's Yanmar product line is a light weight, high
> RPM family much like the old VWs.
>
> Works well in a hight speed power boat, not so well in a sailboat which
> needs high torque, low RPM.
>
> Lew

The 1GM and 2GM do have stock mounts with huge rubber flex pads.
When I bought my S2 with the 1GM, i was worried about being able to
power into thunderstorms (we have a lot of them here in N. FL) so I
had the 2 blade prop replaced with a 3 blade and it seemed to work
well. I once ran from Naples, FL to St. Marks FL no wind at all the
entire time for 250 miles and burned only 12 gallons of fuel at 5 kts
the whole time. That little engine never missed a beat.
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

On Sep 14, 5:48 am, Frogwatch <dboh... DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Sep 14, 3:37 am, mike.e.worr... DeleteThis @abc.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Jeff:
>
> > A bit of additional research on my part reveals that the Westerbeke
> > 44B Four and the Vetus M 4.17 are the same Mitsubishi block... the
> > Mitsubishi is, in fact 'self-bleeding' (I own one) which is a nice
> > feature but perhaps not one to base a decision on
>
> > Don't get confused at the Volvo site; all of their photos show the
> > engine attached to a saildrive, but all are in reality equally
> > available with standard marine transmissions. Your best bet seems to
> > be...
>
> >http://www.volvo.com/NR/rdonlyres/EE5EE400-DFF1-4B0A-B6C6-5100F8A3BEB...
>
> > Volvo has a reputation for expensive parts, *but* their engines are
> > now made by Perkins which has a long and proud tradition of rock solid
> > diesel engines. Want proof? Note the displacement / bore / stroke of
> > the Volvo in the above .pdf with the Perkins model 404D-15 here:
>
> >http://www.perkins.com/cda/layout?m=97265&x=7
>
> > So, if Volvo is simply 'marinizing' a Perkins, and if Perkins parts
> > are widely available and resonably priced, why shy away? Too, the
> > Volvo has a whopping 115 Amp alternator as standard equipment... which
> > is a nice feature, but perhaps not one to base a decision on
>
> > I believe Yanmar makes a fine product, and unlike all of the above,
> > it's *their own* product, i.e. they aren't 'marinizing' someone else's
> > block - it's a Yanmar from tip to tail. This might be considered a
> > good thing by some, and a bad thing by others.
>
> > My suggestion would be to print out the various spec sheets available
> > from these manufacturers for the 40+/- hp engines, grab a highlighter
> > and start making notes.
>
> > With a few hours study, you'll be well on your way to making a
> > informed decision, which will give you a leg up when it comes time to
> > buy.
>
> > Let us know what you decide, and - perhaps more importantly - why!
>
> > MW
>
> Am not sure why Hodgett does not like Yanmar. I have had two and they
> are the most reliable machines I have ever seen.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ditto my experience. Yanmar very reliable. I've had various 1, 2, and
3 cylinder Yanmars, all reliable. Very, very important to have good
shaft alignment with any engine installation. Poor alignment is the
usual cause of motor mount breakage, although some mounts aggravate
the problem by sagging. Also very important: clean fuel and proper
propellor match. With proper gearing and prop match, high rpm engines
very OK for sailboats. The only real disadvantage is that hand
starting can be next to impossible with the low flywheel mass, so be
sure to maintain your starting system (battery, wiring, starter
motor).
Paul Mathews
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke? 

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:02:14 -0700, daddyo <jeff.mckinnon DeleteThis @gmail.com>
wrote:

>I've got a 1966 Hinckley Pilot with a 1978 Westerbeke 40 HP diesel
>that is probably on its last legs. Would much appreciate anyone's
>wisdom/experience on choosing a replacement diesel. My yard is
>recommending another Westerbeke but all the sailors I talk to say
>Yanmar.

My genset has a 35 hp Yanmar diesel that is still going strong after
2,000 hours in three years. It replaced a 10 year old Westerbeke that
was getting flaky in a variety of ways.
 >> Stay informed about: Yanmar or Westerbeke?