epoxy does so pass water

Do you really believe that kind of storage is what the designer of the boat
recommended in his plans?
Do you believe that kind of storage is intended on ANY boat, to left outside
open side up in the weather.
Do you leave your convertible out with the top down?

For the intended usage of epoxy sheathed plywood boats, the claim of
waterproof is valid. As long as the epoxy is not damaged in such a way as to
allow water to reach the ply, it will stay dry.

Bill

"William R. Watt" <ag384.DeleteThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:bhrsib$72u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
 > The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me
 > today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The
 > builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming
 > epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
 > froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside
 > the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the
 > water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of
 > epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.
 > --
 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
 > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
<font color=purple> > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font</a>>
 > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

"William R. Watt" writes:

 > The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me
 > today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull.

<snip>
What did you expect with no glass.

Your cheap ass polyester would have suffered the same result.


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the Southland)
Visit: <http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett> for Pictures<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

"William R. Watt" wrote:

 > The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me
 > today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The
 > builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming
 > epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
 > froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside
 > the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the
 > water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of
 > epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.

Gee, you mean if you store your boat improperly, it might get damaged? What a
concept!

If it was exposed to snow, was it also exposed to sun? Every epoxy manufacturer
cautions about the damage that UV will cause. In addition to providing UV
protection, varnishing or painting epoxy coated surfaces eliminates water
penetration.

--
Regards

Brian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

Everybody knows that epoxy is bad, very bad but plain wood is much better.
I heard that story of a guy using a blow torch on his stitch and glue boat
and the thing caught fire!
"Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. "

The older the boat building technique the better.
Do not trust resin or fiberglass, these are very dangerous products.
Worms will eat polyester, glass will rot. You'll get cancer just from
looking at resin
and anyway, it would be a sin to make boat building easy and eliminate
maintenance.

Only a old fashioned wooden kayak would have resisted that treatment.
No?
--
Jacques
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bateau.com" target="_blank">http://www.bateau.com</a>

"William R. Watt" <ag384 DeleteThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:bhrsib$72u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
 > The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me
 > today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The
 > builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming
 > epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
 > froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside
 > the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the
 > water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of
 > epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.
 > --
 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
 > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
<font color=purple> > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font</a>>
 > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

Six years ago my daughter build a Shellback sailboat.
All year round her boat is stored in from of her house on the edge of the
LaHave river in Nova Scotia. During the winter its lay outside not covered.
Sometime its full of snow and sometime its covered with snow and ice. I
told her that she should cover her boat for better winter protection. She
replied maybe I should.
I look at her boat this last spring and its looks in pristine condition.
Only the varnish had faded and needed to be done yearly but the paint is
immaculate.
The construction method she used is as follows"
1) Marine grade plywood saturated with thin coast of epoxy before cutting to
size.
2) All cut out parts impregnated with epoxy before assembly.
3) 3 coats of epoxy after final assembly.
4) 3 coats of premium exterior house latex paint



"Jacques Mertens" <jmertens DeleteThis @e-boat.net> wrote in message
news:Hqu0b.2272$NZ1.2129@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com...
 > Everybody knows that epoxy is bad, very bad but plain wood is much better.
 > I heard that story of a guy using a blow torch on his stitch and glue boat
 > and the thing caught fire!
 > "Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. "
 >
 > The older the boat building technique the better.
 > Do not trust resin or fiberglass, these are very dangerous products.
 > Worms will eat polyester, glass will rot. You'll get cancer just from
 > looking at resin
 > and anyway, it would be a sin to make boat building easy and eliminate
 > maintenance.
 >
 > Only a old fashioned wooden kayak would have resisted that treatment.
 > No?
 > --
 > Jacques
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bateau.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.bateau.com</font</a>>
 >
 > "William R. Watt" <ag384 DeleteThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
 > news:bhrsib$72u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
  > > The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing
me
  > > today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull.
The
  > > builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming
  > > epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
  > > froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water
inside
  > > the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the
  > > water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of
  > > epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.
  > > --
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > ----
  > > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
 > network
<font color=green>  > > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font</a>>
  > > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's
returned
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

"Jacques Mertens" (jmertens@e-boat.net) writes:

 > Only a old fashioned wooden kayak would have resisted that treatment.

don't you mean an old fashioned seal skin kayak?


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

Epoxy is hydrophobic and permeability is very low. BUT it can slowly absorb
water if left submerged for very long periods of time. I had a scarf on a
rubrail bust once from the same thing...left out all winter in the rain,
unprotected. The paint on the boat was topsides paint, not rated for
submersion. I know polyester resin would've been far worse. As with any
boat left in water (whether rain collecting in it or floating), an
appropriate bottom paint should be used. And yes, I know how very tough it
is to find a bottom paint that is legal to apply above the waterline. You
have to find a non-antifouling bottom paint to be legal above the waterline.
I've heard good things about Devoe 229, which is an industrial grade marine
epoxy paint ...used on everything from offshore oil rigs to large commercial
ships. The gloss is reasonably good, and the paint is very tough. Saw it
first on a Tolman Widebody skiff in Homer, Alaska and the owners (and skiff
designer Renn Tolman) were very happy with it. It's what I'm going to use
on the boat that I'm building now ....a Tolman Jumbo. I live in Oregon and
in spite of drains, water WILL collect in and on the boat. Interlux makes
an epoxy paint rated for submersion also. It's called something like
'Progressive' ...you have to call them and ask for it. It doesn't show up
in their catalog lists.

Brian


"William R. Watt" <ag384.RemoveThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:bhrsib$72u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
 > The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me
 > today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The
 > builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming
 > epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
 > froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside
 > the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the
 > water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of
 > epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.
 > --
 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
 > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
<font color=purple> > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font</a>>
 > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

Yuk yuk.

"Jacques Mertens" <jmertens.RemoveThis@e-boat.net> wrote in message
news:Hqu0b.2272$NZ1.2129@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com...
 > Everybody knows that epoxy is bad, very bad but plain wood is much better.
 > I heard that story of a guy using a blow torch on his stitch and glue boat
 > and the thing caught fire!
 > "Accept the claims of epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril. "
 >
 > The older the boat building technique the better.
 > Do not trust resin or fiberglass, these are very dangerous products.
 > Worms will eat polyester, glass will rot. You'll get cancer just from
 > looking at resin
 > and anyway, it would be a sin to make boat building easy and eliminate
 > maintenance.
 >
 > Only a old fashioned wooden kayak would have resisted that treatment.
 > No?
 > --
 > Jacques
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bateau.com</font" target="_blank">http://www.bateau.com</font</a>>
 >
 > "William R. Watt" <ag384.RemoveThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
 > news:bhrsib$72u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
  > > The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing
me
  > > today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull.
The
  > > builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming
  > > epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
  > > froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water
inside
  > > the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the
  > > water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of
  > > epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.
  > > --
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > ----
  > > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
 > network
<font color=green>  > > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font</a>>
  > > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's
returned
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

What would you use instead of epoxy? or what would you recommend?

--
Thank You,
Freddie L. Richard
fleroux.DeleteThis@msn.com
frichard.DeleteThis@frichard.com
"William R. Watt" <ag384.DeleteThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:bhrsib$72u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
 > The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me
 > today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The
 > builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming
 > epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
 > froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside
 > the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the
 > water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of
 > epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.
 > --
 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
 > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
network
<font color=purple> > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font</a>>
 > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

"Freddie Richard" <nobody RemoveThis @noneofyours.com> wrote in message news:<3faf2612_9 RemoveThis @athenanews.com>...
 > What would you use instead of epoxy? or what would you recommend?

Nothing! The brunt of this discussion is that Epoxy is not a miracle
cure all, it is however probably the best the average builder has
available. The point is that Epoxy can be part of a process that will
control water movement, but it is a team effort and it takes paint,
fiberglass, proper preperation, proper application, some effort and
thought of the builder, and of course dillagence (sp?) on the part of
the owner.
Scotty from SmallBoats.com
 >
 > --
 > Thank You,
 > Freddie L. Richard
 > fleroux RemoveThis @msn.com
 > frichard RemoveThis @frichard.com
 > "William R. Watt" <ag384 RemoveThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
 > news:bhrsib$72u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
  > > The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me
  > > today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The
  > > builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming
  > > epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
  > > froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside
  > > the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the
  > > water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of
  > > epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.
  > > --
  > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > ----
  > > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community
 > network
<font color=green>  > > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</font</a>>
  > > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

"William R. Watt" <ag384.TakeThisOut@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:bhrsib$72u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...

  >> The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me
  >> today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The
  >> builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming
  >> epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
  >> froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside
  >> the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the
  >> water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of
  >> epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.
 >
How about a few more details? How was the hull sealed? Was it simply a thin epoxy sealer coat or was the inside glassed as well? It makes a huge difference in permeability. Was the epoxy damaged (cracked) by the freeze-thaw cycles?

Let's also remember a couple other points:

- A coat of varnish or paint over the epoxy would have eliminated the problem.

- Simply covering or inverting the boat to prevent water accumulation would have prevented the problem.

The issue here is not any deficiency of the epoxy, but rather a deficiency on the part of the builder.

--
Regards

Brian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

Correct. That post probably came from somebody who is prejudiced against
modern materials.
If an epoxy boat is left out unpainted for years, the UV's will break down
and problems will start.

Do you know that those Abram's M1 tanks are very weak and unsafe? I heard
that one was destroyed last week.

See where those generalizations lead us?

--
Jacques
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bateau.com" target="_blank">http://www.bateau.com</a>

"Brian Nystrom" <brian.nystrom DeleteThis @att.net> wrote in message
news:T5Lrb.43297$Ec1.3139917@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
 > "William R. Watt" <ag384 DeleteThis @FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
 > news:bhrsib$72u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
 >
   > >> The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing
me
   > >> today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull.
The
   > >> builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly
assuming
   > >> epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
   > >> froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water
inside
   > >> the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop
the
   > >> water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims
of
   > >> epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.
  > >
 > How about a few more details? How was the hull sealed? Was it simply a
thin epoxy sealer coat or was the inside glassed as well? It makes a huge
difference in permeability. Was the epoxy damaged (cracked) by the
freeze-thaw cycles?
 >
 > Let's also remember a couple other points:
 >
 > - A coat of varnish or paint over the epoxy would have eliminated the
problem.
 >
 > - Simply covering or inverting the boat to prevent water accumulation
would have prevented the problem.
 >
 > The issue here is not any deficiency of the epoxy, but rather a deficiency
on the part of the builder.
 >
 > --
 > Regards
 >
 > Brian
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water 

old threads never die, they just unravel ....

in small boat projects by amateurs on the Internet you'll find lots and
lots of references to brushing a coat of epoxy on plywood panels to seal
them. paint and varnish are much cheaper, they are designed to dry smooth
unlike epoxy, and they are just as waterproof as a coat of brushed on
epoxy. epoxy has some sort of religious hold on amateur boatbuilders. they
assume baptizing their boats with a coat of epoxy blesses the boats with
impermeability and longevity.

how's that kayak design going?

Brian Nystrom (brian.nystrom@att.net) writes:
 > "William R. Watt" <ag384.TakeThisOut@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
 > news:bhrsib$72u$1@freenet9.carleton.ca...
 >
   >>> The owner of an epoxy sheathed plywood (okume marine) kayak was showing me
   >>> today the deterioration in the surface ply on the inside of the hull. The
   >>> builder had let the boat sit outside over the winter mistakenly assuming
   >>> epoxy was impervious to H2O. Snow accumulated in the cockpit, melted,
   >>> froze, melted again, and by late spring there was 6" of melt water inside
   >>> the hull. The epoxy sheathing on the inside of the hull did not stop the
   >>> water from getting at the plywood and starting rot. Accept the claims of
   >>> epoxy purveyors and promoters at your peril.
  >>
 > How about a few more details? How was the hull sealed? Was it simply a thin epoxy sealer coat or was the inside glassed as well? It makes a huge difference in permeability. Was the epoxy damaged (cracked) by the freeze-thaw cycles?
 >
 > Let's also remember a couple other points:
 >
 > - A coat of varnish or paint over the epoxy would have eliminated the problem.
 >
 > - Simply covering or inverting the boat to prevent water accumulation would have prevented the problem.
 >
 > The issue here is not any deficiency of the epoxy, but rather a deficiency on the part of the builder.
 >
 > --
 > Regards
 >
 > Brian
 >


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: epoxy does so pass water