fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb..

Andy,
Just curious, what experience do you base your statement "sailboards
can't keep up on a proper course, they are damn fast on a reach and not
in any other direction". The consensus in windsurfing seems to be that
only Americas Cup boats are competitive with modern Windsurfer "Formula"
class hulls on upwind/downwind downwind courses and then primarily on
the upwind legs.
Ray

Andy Champ wrote:
>
> Harken Ronstan wrote:
>
>> What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
>> triangle course these days?
>>
>> I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
>> Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
>> guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.
>
>
> According to the RYA, the 49er's yardstick of 747 is 73 faster than the
> next boat - the RS800. I14 is 864, and 505 a mere 902. They quote 855
> for the Projection 762 (keelboat). They've also got 689 for the Dart
> Hawk cat. No good number for the 18ft skiff, but Datchet Water reckon
> it is about 700.
>
> I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
> are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.
>
> Andy.
>
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

> I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
> are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.
>
> Andy.

Andy,
there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
followed by an 18ft skiff.

Ronstan Bridge to Bridge, SF, CA

The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
upwind mark.
I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
Biscyane Bay.
420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
the downwind.

AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. >10knots the
windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.

Re: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailboard)?
My money would be on the 18ft skiff.
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

Ray Kuntz wrote:
> Andy,
> Just curious, what experience do you base your statement "sailboards
> can't keep up on a proper course, they are damn fast on a reach and not
> in any other direction". The consensus in windsurfing seems to be that
> only Americas Cup boats are competitive with modern Windsurfer "Formula"
> class hulls on upwind/downwind downwind courses and then primarily on
> the upwind legs.
> Ray
>

Hmmm I seem to have stirred this one up. Apart from "popular opinion"
and the fact that all the ones I've raced against don't seem any quicker
around the course than my Solo (UK PY=1155, a tad slower than a Laser)
there's the US Sailing PY tables:


WINDSURFER CLASSES CLASS D-PN WIND HC FOR BEAUFORT RANGE
CODE 0-1 2-3 4 5-9

Div II (SA = < 6m2) SB-2 92.6 98.4 94.6 88.4 (85.1)
Div IIB (SA = 6-7m2) SB-2B 89.7 96.3 92.6 83.8 (82.0)
Div IIC (SA = > 7m2) SB-2C 86.7 84.4 87.3

That puts the fastest boards about the same as a 470. faster than I
thought, but still not exactly world shattering.

That race in San Francisco? Well, it's downwind.....

Andy
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

Juri Munkki wrote:
> I'm not saying that they're the fastest thing out there of all
> sailing vessels for a course...I'm just stating that the table
> you have quoted is antiquated.
>
Best table I could find. There's nothing on the RYA, and that is US
sailing's entire sailboard table. If you have something more recent I;m
sure we'd all like to see it!

I'm not surprised that a 2000-date board can beat my boat BTW - it was
designed in 1950-something. I'm quite aware that what I am doing is the
marine equivalent of racing a Norton...

Andy.
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

Dear Sloped A-hole.

This is "rec.boats.racing" NOT "alt.sailing"
Current fastest production mono-hull is Outer Limits 39' with
1400 hp twins and Merc #6 dry-sump drives. 147+ mph

Still has Reggie PO'd


"Harken Ronstan" <slopehaole.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d00a559b.0312271819.2fc5a7d1@posting.google.com...
> What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
> triangle course these days?
>
> I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
> Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
> guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

> > I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
> > are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.
> >
>
> brian wrote:
> Andy,
> there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
> dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
> 18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
> windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
> followed by an 18ft skiff.

I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.

In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
course... especially windward/leeward...


>
>
> The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
> upwind mark.
> I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
> Biscyane Bay.
> 420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
> them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
> the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
> me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
> the downwind.

Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
doesn't even have a trap.

I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
them when doing casual sprints.

>
>
> AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. >10knots the
> windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.

It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the boardsailor.
Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?

In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old heavy
windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

I did a bit of fast reching myself early NewYears day,
and I do windsurf.

-Craig

DSK wrote:
[snip]

>
> In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
> fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
> course... especially windward/leeward...
>

[snip]
--
Craig (Go Short or Go Home!) Goudie
Sailing the high desert lakes of Utah on my:
RRD 298, Starboard 272 and Cross M 8'2" with
Sailworks/Naish Sails and Rec Composites Fins
Sailing the Gorge on my: 9'1" RRD Freeride,
8'3" Logosz Squish, 8'0" Hitech IBM with
Sailworks/Northwave Sails and Curtis Fins
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

DSK <doug888.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<3FF9BBF1.73FEC1FD.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net>...
> > > I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
> > > are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.
> > >
> >
> > brian wrote:
> > Andy,
> > there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
> > dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
> > 18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
> > windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
> > followed by an 18ft skiff.
>
> I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
> much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
> that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.
>
> In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
> fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
> course... especially windward/leeward...

So, fact is, the Windsurfer wins the leeward leg of the regular/proper
windward/leeward course with a 30 second spurt. Still won that leg
though.

> >
> >
> > The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
> > upwind mark.
> > I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
> > Biscyane Bay.
> > 420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
> > them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
> > the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
> > me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
> > the downwind.
>
> Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
> Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
> doesn't even have a trap.

> I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
> 470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
> them when doing casual sprints.

Yes your right I'm sure there are faster non-displacement monos
around. But they had a course set and were out there racin so I went
out and joined them.

First year I had my Foumula Board I riged and went out and tried racin
the Tornado's in the Rolex Olympic Class Regatta on Biscayne Bay. I
wasn't even close.
Now I have some better equipment, a bit more skill, and can tune the
stuff better for the conditions.
Had the chance to do a side by side with a couple of Tornados out
tuning last month. It was no problem to pull away from them this
time. But this wasn't a race.

> >
> > AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. >10knots the
> > windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.
>
> It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the boardsailor.
> Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?

Steep chop like on Biscayne Bay does slow the windsurfer down. Still
not slower than the sailboat.

> In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
> windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old heavy
> windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.
>
> Fresh Breezes- Doug King

What we need here is a challange.
I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.

The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
this.

whonositflosit
Fesstoosn- Brian
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

Gutass,
You really are behind the curve.
You responded in:
alt.sailing
alt.sailing.asa
rec.windsurfing
And rec.boatsracing (for people that actually compete)
as opposed to rec.boatsracing.power

And - If you are going to include silly motor toys
then the fastest monohull is the Russian KM Ekranoplan at
500+Kph (~270K)


Gustaf wrote:

> Dear Sloped A-hole.
>
> This is "rec.boats.racing" NOT "alt.sailing"
> Current fastest production mono-hull is Outer Limits 39' with
> 1400 hp twins and Merc #6 dry-sump drives. 147+ mph
>
> Still has Reggie PO'd
>
>
> "Harken Ronstan" <slopehaole.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:d00a559b.0312271819.2fc5a7d1@posting.google.com...
>
>>What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
>>triangle course these days?
>>
>>I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
>>Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
>>guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

The Lechner remark isn't exactly accurate, in particular since other Div.II
from that era were considered better (like the Davidson). Moreover, I think
it was tongue in cheek. But still wrong on another level in that in a
steady light wind (9 knots) a FW board will kill any Div.II board around
most any course.

Hey Doug, where are you? Bellsouth gives you away!

--
-Dan
"DSK" <doug888.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3FF9BBF1.73FEC1FD@bellsouth.net...
> > > I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
> > > are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.
> > >
> >
> > brian wrote:
> > Andy,
> > there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
> > dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
> > 18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
> > windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
> > followed by an 18ft skiff.
>
> I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
> much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
> that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.
>
> In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
> fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
> course... especially windward/leeward...
>
>
> >
> >
> > The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
> > upwind mark.
> > I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
> > Biscyane Bay.
> > 420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
> > them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
> > the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
> > me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
> > the downwind.
>
> Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
> Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
> doesn't even have a trap.
>
> I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
> 470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
> them when doing casual sprints.
>
> >
> >
> > AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. >10knots the
> > windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.
>
> It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the
boardsailor.
> Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?
>
> In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
> windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old
heavy
> windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.
>
> Fresh Breezes- Doug King
>
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

DSK wrote:
>>>I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
>>>are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.
>>>
>>
>>brian wrote:
>>Andy,
>>there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
>>dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
>>18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
>>windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
>>followed by an 18ft skiff.
>
>
> I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
> much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
> that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.
>
> In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
> fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
> course... especially windward/leeward...
>

well, being "not much (if any) faster" than a keelboat or skiff around
a windward leeward is considered pretty great by most windsurfers
familiar with the problems involved. it was only a few years ago - like
maybe 4, that even that would have been imposssible. as you say, windsurfers
are fast on a reach, but they have always been. their good windward/leeward
speed is a relatively new phenomenon, it represents a dramatic performance
increase over trhe last few years.

jeff feehan




>
>>
>>The skiffs do ok upwind but are still behind the windsurfer at the
>>upwind mark.
>>I proved that to myself today. There was some racing today on
>>Biscyane Bay.
>>420s, 29ers. I let the 29ers clear there start line. I sailed after
>>them on my windsurfer. Upwind downwind course proper. When I rounded
>>the upwind mark ahead of them, I waited till they rounded and passed
>>me, then I started for the downwind, past them all and was first to
>>the downwind.
>
>
> Sorry, a 29er is hardly in the same league with the 18-footer skiffs.
> Shucks, a lowly Johnson 18 will beat a 29er all day every day, and it
> doesn't even have a trap.
>
> I've beaten windsurfers around triangular courses in a Laser 2 and in a
> 470, and while I never raced one formally in the Johnson 18 we often pass
> them when doing casual sprints.
>
>
>>
>>AC boats would win the upwind in less then 10 knots. >10knots the
>>windsurfer would be waiting at the mark for the AC boat.
>
>
> It's possible, depending on the conditions and the board & the boardsailor.
> Wouldn't a chop slow down the windurfer, too?
>
> In any event, remarks like mine are not going to go over well on the
> windsurfer group where people say things like "a Lechner (ie very old heavy
> windsurfer) will smoke any regular sailboat" which is laughable.
>
> Fresh Breezes- Doug King
>
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

jeff feehan wrote:

>
> well, being "not much (if any) faster" than a keelboat or skiff around
> a windward leeward is considered pretty great by most windsurfers
> familiar with the problems involved.

Sure. Faster = better
But you still can't pop a beer while windsurfing, or bring a friend.

BTW I have not had a chance to benchmark the speed of these kitesurfers against
any of the boats I sail. From watching them, they seem to prefer reaching back &
forth.


> it was only a few years ago - like
> maybe 4, that even that would have been imposssible. as you say, windsurfers
> are fast on a reach, but they have always been. their good windward/leeward
> speed is a relatively new phenomenon, it represents a dramatic performance
> increase over trhe last few years.

Well, monohull performance has increased in the past few years too. There are
more controllable rigs, screechers, square tops, improved foil designs, etc etc.
But it seems to me that improvements in windsurfers are more widely distributed
faster than in small fast monohulls. Especially one-design classes, most of which
are actually rather backwards-looking and Luddite.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 20:00:19 -0500, "Dan Weiss"
<dwusDONTSPAMME484.TakeThisOut@bellNOSPAMsouth.net> wrote:

>--
>-Dan
>"DSK" <doug888.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:3FF9BBF1.73FEC1FD@bellsouth.net...
>> > > I think you'll find sailboards can't keep up on a proper course, they
>> > > are damn fast on a reach and not in any other direction.
>> > >
>> >
>> > brian wrote:
>> > Andy,
>> > there's this race in San Francisco, USA. It's between two bridges,
>> > dead downwind. Anything powered by wind can enter. Kite boarders,
>> > 18ft skiffs, windsurfers. 2002 Kite boarder won, followed by a
>> > windsurfer 2nd, followed by an 18ft skiff. 2003 Windsurfer won,
>> > followed by an 18ft skiff.
>>
>> I saw part of this race, and it looked to me like the windsurfer was going
>> much faster in spurts but the skiff was keeping up. The final result was
>> that the 'board won by about 30 seconds.
>>
I didn't see this, but if the windsurfer just managed to beat the
skiff downwind only, a windward-leeward would have been a walkover for
the skiff.




>> In general I think Andy's remark is accurate, windsurfers are very very
>> fast reching, but they are not much (if any) faster around a regular race
>> course... especially windward/leeward...
>>



Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


Does one child rape really change Strom Thurmond's lifetime record?
For better or worse?
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb..