fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb..

> brian wrote:
> > What we need here is a challange.
> > I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
> > Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
> > regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.
> >
> > The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
> > this.

There used to be an annual race that was a challenge among all
one-design classes, but it died out before windsurfers caught on. The
problem I see is that the hot windsurfers (at least the ones I'm
familiar with) aren't really one-design at all, they mix-n-match boards,
gear, sails in all kinds of variations. Obviously there should be a
completely open class which might include giant proas, hydrofoils, kite
boards, etc etc.

BTW if you want to place a limit on your challenge of winds >10 knots,
you might also be aware that other specialized craft have a right to
name their favorite conditions too. Try racing against a Thistle in
winds of less than 3 knots.



>
> >
>
> jeff feehan wrote:
> depending on what boats they race there, you might need more than
> 10 kts - 12 would be safer.

What about a maximum?

>
>
> the problem is to predict a date/time where the wind won't drop
> below 10 (or 12) kts. around here (long island sound) that's pretty
> hard - a good seabreeze day will almost always have lulls below
> 12 kts. when i sail formula against keelboats, i do fine until
> i sail into a lull, and the i get left behind.

It's even more dramatic with a hydrofoiler. But you can see why some of
us are a bit amused by the way some windsurfers (obviously not *all*)
claim a blanket superiority. Must be an ego thing.

Personally, I haven't done any windsurfing for a few years, if the gear
has improved that much maybe I should give it another try.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

Doug and everyone else,
Give it a try. The newer wide style boards dating back four or five
years are an eye opener. You won't get wet (as often), as 1 meter wide
boards are 1) very stable and 2) there is a lot of deck to land on. They
plane off incredibly easily, even (especially) for the +42 inch
waistband crowd (I treat my own gut as movable ballast). They can be
sailed sitting down (somewhere there is a photo of Brian "The Dog"
Cunningham sailing his Start sitting in a lawn chair) and some come with
a beer locker (well the Exocet Cruiser has a cubby big enough for one
can) They also sail fully planning at very high upwind (and Downwind)
angles and thanks to refined rocker lines, give up very little to
traditional narrow shapes on reaches. Modern windsurfing sails are
another wonder. Since we can't reef our sails, or change them without
coming in, borrowing some of the sail shaping hardware from real boats
added to intensive design work by our sailmakers has produced incredibly
well shaped, extremely stable rigs with working wind ranges twice what
they used to be. All in all this new user friendly stuff has
revolutionized Windsurfing, it's a blast, a welcome breath of fresh air
in a sport that was stagnating.
Ray


DSK wrote:
>
>>brian wrote:
>>
>>>What we need here is a challange.
>>>I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
>>>Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
>>>regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.
>>>
>>>The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
>>>this.
>
>
> There used to be an annual race that was a challenge among all
> one-design classes, but it died out before windsurfers caught on. The
> problem I see is that the hot windsurfers (at least the ones I'm
> familiar with) aren't really one-design at all, they mix-n-match boards,
> gear, sails in all kinds of variations. Obviously there should be a
> completely open class which might include giant proas, hydrofoils, kite
> boards, etc etc.
>
> BTW if you want to place a limit on your challenge of winds >10 knots,
> you might also be aware that other specialized craft have a right to
> name their favorite conditions too. Try racing against a Thistle in
> winds of less than 3 knots.
>
>
>
>
>>jeff feehan wrote:
>>depending on what boats they race there, you might need more than
>>10 kts - 12 would be safer.
>
>
> What about a maximum?
>
>
>>
>>the problem is to predict a date/time where the wind won't drop
>>below 10 (or 12) kts. around here (long island sound) that's pretty
>>hard - a good seabreeze day will almost always have lulls below
>>12 kts. when i sail formula against keelboats, i do fine until
>>i sail into a lull, and the i get left behind.
>
>
> It's even more dramatic with a hydrofoiler. But you can see why some of
> us are a bit amused by the way some windsurfers (obviously not *all*)
> claim a blanket superiority. Must be an ego thing.
>
> Personally, I haven't done any windsurfing for a few years, if the gear
> has improved that much maybe I should give it another try.
>
> Fresh Breezes- Doug King
>
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

DSK wrote:

>>brian wrote:
>>
>>>What we need here is a challange.
>>>I challange any wind powered craft to prevail over a Formula
>>>Windsurfer and competant sailor in a series of four Regattas on a
>>>regular/proper windward/leeward course. Wind min. of 10 knots.
>>>
>>>The yacht and sailing clubs down in the Coconut Grove might go for
>>>this.
>
>
> There used to be an annual race that was a challenge among all
> one-design classes, but it died out before windsurfers caught on. The
> problem I see is that the hot windsurfers (at least the ones I'm
> familiar with) aren't really one-design at all, they mix-n-match boards,
> gear, sails in all kinds of variations. Obviously there should be a
> completely open class which might include giant proas, hydrofoils, kite
> boards, etc etc.
>
> BTW if you want to place a limit on your challenge of winds >10 knots,
> you might also be aware that other specialized craft have a right to
> name their favorite conditions too. Try racing against a Thistle in
> winds of less than 3 knots.

and, if you wanted to give a prize for the "least comfortable" boat around
the course, the thistle would probably win that too.

well, of course, for different windspeeds, different boats would win.

but, i would bet that if you set a windward/leeward course somewhere
with generally breezy conditions, and ran a contest that lasted, say,
several months - a formula windsurfer would win the overall prize for
fastest time around the course. i doubt that any skiffs, cats, a.c. boats,
or anything else would be as fast.

somehow, the prize for fastest time seems more desireable than one
for a particular wind range - to me at least.
>

>
> > Personally, I haven't done any windsurfing for a few years, if the gear
> has improved that much maybe I should give it another try.
>

with respect to windward/leeward performance in moderate windspeeds, the
gear has improved quite considerably in the last few years - i would say
the new gear is revolutionary. i also race dinghys and keelboats, and i
so i would say my opinion is an informed one. in light winds, say under
8kts, the performance gain isn't so big - 10 year old boards still win
in these conditions.

jeff feehan



>>jeff feehan wrote:
>>depending on what boats they race there, you might need more than
>>10 kts - 12 would be safer.
>
>
> What about a maximum?
>
>
>>
>>the problem is to predict a date/time where the wind won't drop
>>below 10 (or 12) kts. around here (long island sound) that's pretty
>>hard - a good seabreeze day will almost always have lulls below
>>12 kts. when i sail formula against keelboats, i do fine until
>>i sail into a lull, and the i get left behind.
>
>
> It's even more dramatic with a hydrofoiler. But you can see why some of
> us are a bit amused by the way some windsurfers (obviously not *all*)
> claim a blanket superiority. Must be an ego thing.
>
> Personally, I haven't done any windsurfing for a few years, if the gear
> has improved that much maybe I should give it another try.
>
> Fresh Breezes- Doug King
>
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

> DSK wrote:
> > BTW if you want to place a limit on your challenge of winds >10 knots,
> > you might also be aware that other specialized craft have a right to
> > name their favorite conditions too. Try racing against a Thistle in
> > winds of less than 3 knots.
>
> jeff feehan wrote:
> and, if you wanted to give a prize for the "least comfortable" boat around
> the course, the thistle would probably win that too.

Agreed but then the Thistles have a large & enthusiastic fan club. The
issue here is that light winds are very common on inland lakes and in some
coastal areas, so if for some reason one finds oneself living in such an area,
the Thistle is a good choice.

>
>
> well, of course, for different windspeeds, different boats would win.
>
> but, i would bet that if you set a windward/leeward course somewhere
> with generally breezy conditions, and ran a contest that lasted, say,
> several months - a formula windsurfer would win the overall prize for
> fastest time around the course. i doubt that any skiffs, cats, a.c. boats,
> or anything else would be as fast.

Well after looking around a bit more, it looks like windsurfer performance has
improved but as I said, so has monohulls. IACC boats VMG is pretty impressive,
so is the F40 cats and the C-cats. It would be an interesting trial.

One thing is for sure, to get a monohull with anything approaching this
performance, you have to spend a LOT more money.

I saw an open race last year where an 18-footer skiff, a canting keel Schock
40, and S&S '87 (the America's Cup cat) were in the same race. At different
times any of the three above were ahead and showing better speed than the
others, but overall the big cat won.

>
>
> somehow, the prize for fastest time seems more desireable than one
> for a particular wind range - to me at least.

But what you're saying is 'fastest time within a particular wind range.' Why
not give the other guy a chance to pick his favorite conditions, it's only
fair.

>
> >
>
> >
> > > Personally, I haven't done any windsurfing for a few years, if the gear
> > has improved that much maybe I should give it another try.
> >
>
> with respect to windward/leeward performance in moderate windspeeds, the
> gear has improved quite considerably in the last few years - i would say
> the new gear is revolutionary. i also race dinghys and keelboats, and i
> so i would say my opinion is an informed one. in light winds, say under
> 8kts, the performance gain isn't so big - 10 year old boards still win
> in these conditions.

Personally, I'd like to see some new boat classes that incorporate some of the
same advances. Most popular classes are ~40 year old designs.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

The message <3FFAD686.7CD1130D RemoveThis @bellsouth.net>
from DSK <doug888 RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> contains these words:

> BTW if you want to place a limit on your challenge of winds >10 knots,
> you might also be aware that other specialized craft have a right to
> name their favorite conditions too. Try racing against a Thistle in
> winds of less than 3 knots.

Possibly then it is not the wisest decision (made many years ago) to
have only Thistle (and no other boats) as the Primary Yardstick in the
American Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme. This can give skewing problems
because of the biassed characteristics of its performance.

RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme (on which Dixie was based in 1961) uses
several Primary Yardstick classes so making it more a level "playing
field" in comparing classes' performances.

These include single-handed and two handed, una rigged, two sail and
three sail (with conventional and asymetric spis), modern and older
designs.

Stuart
Chairman: RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Advisory Group
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

Harken Ronstan wrote:
>
> What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
> triangle course these days?
>
> I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
> Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
> guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.

In light winds (under maybe 6 or 7 knots) AC type boats (long, narrow
keel yacht) are probabely fastest. A little more wind and i would
consider racing skiffs. Even more (12 knots and up) and Formula
Windsurfing gear has chances. But ultimately fastest are probabely big
(semi)planing racing yachts like the Open 60s or even bigger beasts.
Wasn't there a thread about a 150ft racing monohull shattering some
record a while back? Of course these boats aren't readily available to
most of us...
--
Wolfgang
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

i agree with the a.c. boats, but open 60's and similar boats
aren't designed for upwind work. neither was mari cha - the boat
that beat the transatlantic record recently.

jeff feehan

Wolfgang Soergel wrote:

> Harken Ronstan wrote:
>
>>What is the fastest mono-hull (non-sailboard)on a windward leeward or
>>triangle course these days?
>>
>>I estimate: 505, Intl 14 GP, 49er, 18ft skiff are contenders.
>>Since they all plane up wind, waterline is less of an issue so I would
>>guess larger craft like an E scow, and A scow are in this class.
>
>
> In light winds (under maybe 6 or 7 knots) AC type boats (long, narrow
> keel yacht) are probabely fastest. A little more wind and i would
> consider racing skiffs. Even more (12 knots and up) and Formula
> Windsurfing gear has chances. But ultimately fastest are probabely big
> (semi)planing racing yachts like the Open 60s or even bigger beasts.
> Wasn't there a thread about a 150ft racing monohull shattering some
> record a while back? Of course these boats aren't readily available to
> most of us...
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

jeff feehan wrote:

> i agree with the a.c. boats, but open 60's and similar boats
> aren't designed for upwind work. neither was mari cha - the boat
> that beat the transatlantic record recently.

The problem with IACC boats is that they are designed strictly for windward
& leeward VMG, and furthermore are highly optimized for winds between approx
5 to 15 knots. They don't plane and could not be made to plane, but they do
have long waterlines & tricky hull designs so they can get up & downwind
pretty fast. But they aren't drag racers, their top speed is low by even
planing dinghy standards.

The Open 60s are the opposite, designed to scoot downwind (or at least on
fairly deep reaches). Around a closed course or upwind, they are not slow
but not in the running for fastest IMHO.

Mari-Cha 4 (the 140'+ new record breaking monohull, a ketch no less) has the
same design issues, but is enough bigger (LWL approaching twice the IACC
boats) & more extreme that she would have to be a contender any place she
could fit on the course. Supposedly this boat can go 2X true wind speed
under a wide variety of conditions.... a chop isn't going to slow her down
much!

Besides if a windsurfer was on the same race course with any of these boats,
all the other skipper would have to do is blanket him

Fresh Breezes- Doug King
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

DSK wrote:
>
> Mari-Cha 4 (the 140'+ new record breaking monohull, a ketch no less)..

Looks more like a schooner to me...

> Besides if a windsurfer was on the same race course with any of these boats,
> all the other skipper would have to do is blanket him

Good point! And could you imagine being dead in the water with a 140 ft
boat bearing down on you?

--
//-Walt
//
//
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

In rec.windsurfing jeff feehan <jfeehan.DeleteThis@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

....

> depending on what boats they race there, you might need more than
> 10 kts - 12 would be safer.

But that's boring! 17-20 kts is the sweet spot for my taste.

I'm pretty sure I can't plane my Formula stuff in 10-12 kts. (Of course,
I'm by far the worst Formula "racer" around...)

Cheers,
Cliff
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

Stuart Cresswell wrote:

> RYA Portsmouth Yardstick Scheme (on which Dixie was based in 1961) uses
> several Primary Yardstick classes so making it more a level "playing
> field" in comparing classes' performances.
>
> These include single-handed and two handed, una rigged, two sail and
> three sail (with conventional and asymetric spis), modern and older
> designs.

The biggest problem with the US Portsmouth system is that reported results
are few & far between. There is a great dearth of good numbers to crunch.

It would make sense to pick a larger number number of boat types to use as
inputs to the basic yardstick. From what I've seen & heard the RYA system
would be a far better model to follow.

FB
Doug King
 >> Stay informed about: fastest production monohull (non-displacement , non -sailb.. 

The message <3FFD8C83.93762C1A.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net>
from DSK <doug888.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> contains these words:

> The biggest problem with the US Portsmouth system is that reported results
> are few & far between. There is a great dearth of good numbers to crunch.

I was aware of that - and yet they profess to set numbers for four
different wind speed ranges.

That is something which we believe cannot be done centrally, even with
the large amount of data we have. That does not include different PNs
for different wind strengths. I know that clubs do use different PN s
for light and heavy winds (divide about 8-10 knots), but that data does
not come in our returns.

I believe that the only way that USS can calculate such statistics is
analysis of race results sent in to them with details of wind strength.
Unfortunately that service to clubs has (at least) one major defect.
There is no allowance made for the different skills being deployed by
each of the crews. The effect is that the analysis of races produces
some sort of Personal Handicap (like a golf handicap which is more
concerned with balancing skills of competitors than with balancing the
designed speed potentials of the boats we use).

Estimation of these skills (we call it Crew Skill Factor or CSF) and
allowing for them is something we in Britain are very keen on.
Unfortunately it is not easy and I have been doing a lot of research on
it. At present I have an experiement running with the cooperation of a
local club which has a wide range of skills (world champions to basic
club two or three races a year sailors). It seeks to minimise the brain
activity of the handicap officer and the subjectivity of the judgement.
When (assuming that it is as successful as I anticipate) I will be
publishing the method.

> It would make sense to pick a larger number number of boat types to use as
> inputs to the basic yardstick. From what I've seen & heard the RYA system
> would be a far better model to follow.

Thank you for that encouragement. We try hard to satisfy our sailing
clientel and that means to be the best empirical handicapping sytem in
the world.

Stuart
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