Where is hull design going?

"gjoyce" <gjoyce.TakeThisOut@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4d1e724.0311100419.52d9f094@posting.google.com...
 > I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction.
 > I've been
 > cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
 > what you
 > designer-types might think.
 >
 > Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
 > propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?
 >
 >
 > Thanks
 >
 > Gary P. Joyce

Well, I think they'll be working alot more IR/Radar-defeating surfaces into
construction, stealth technologies, crew-automation...

I see afew multihulls on the design table, lots of efforts to reduce
ship/crew size, increase efficiency, defenses seem to be focusing towards
anti-missile lately. If you'll notice, alot more design-process proposals
are coming out for smaller naval vessels, with less focus on the larger
carrier vessels. The Aircraft Carrier of today doesn't look much different
than it did in WW2-era. Not so for the destroyer or frigate of today's
Navy.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

saildesign RemoveThis @aol.comnospam (Stephen Baker) wrote in message news:<20031110082325.23681.00000468 RemoveThis @mb-m17.aol.com>...
 > gjoyce asks:
 >
  > >Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
  > >propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?
 >
 > That's like asking Ferrari what they will be doing aerodynamically on their
 > next Formula One car. Or asking Ford what the next Focus will look like.
 > Good luck, though
 >
 > Steve
 > Stephen C. Baker - Yacht Designer
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/private/scbweb/home.htm</font" target="_blank">http://members.aol.com/SailDesign/private/scbweb/home.htm</font</a>>

Steve,

I dunno. Is it really going to be that radically different? There are
limits to weight loss, the multihull thing is where it is (would MORE
hulls make a diff? then drag) ... I know there is work being done on
hull coatings insofar as critter adhesion, but are there hull coatings
that will release surface tension like a dolphin's skin? ...is "skin"
an option? ...

I'm just wondering ... beyond foils (and even that ...can a hull BE a
foil? ..rather than having outrigger foils) ...

if Michaelangelo was designing hang gliders in the 15th century, I
figured some of you guys who actually know this stuff must have SOME
ideas for what "could" be ... given material strengths, etc. ... Can a
boat be a disc ...can disc plane, can it float.. ya-dah, ya-dah,
ya-dah ...

Just going for discussion ..

Gary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

"Chris" <rrufiange.DeleteThis@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<nzMrb.66630$jW5.786585@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
 > "gjoyce" <gjoyce.DeleteThis@optonline.net> wrote in message
 > news:4d1e724.0311100419.52d9f094@posting.google.com...
  > > I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction.
  > > I've been
  > > cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
  > > what you
  > > designer-types might think.
  > >
  > > Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
  > > propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?
  > >
  > >
  > > Thanks
  > >
  > > Gary P. Joyce
 >
 > Well, I think they'll be working alot more IR/Radar-defeating surfaces into
 > construction, stealth technologies, crew-automation...
 >
 > I see afew multihulls on the design table, lots of efforts to reduce
 > ship/crew size, increase efficiency, defenses seem to be focusing towards
 > anti-missile lately. If you'll notice, alot more design-process proposals
 > are coming out for smaller naval vessels, with less focus on the larger
 > carrier vessels. The Aircraft Carrier of today doesn't look much different
 > than it did in WW2-era. Not so for the destroyer or frigate of today's
 > Navy.

Yeah, I've noticed that reading what lit is available...the military
is definitely looking at B-2 -looking boats to defeat radar ... they
also seem pretty serious about coatings to prevent critters, but I'm
wondering if - recreationally - what could/would/might trickle down.

Seems most of the work is being done in the submarine context ... the
Russians have this battleship-like design that works surface and sub
.... wild ... but they don;t have the cash anymore ...

I was reading something about hull technology and the guy said that
there is so little capitalization in the rec market, and so little
"real" R&D being done, that to expect anything coming out of the rec
market was pointless ...

then there is the reluctance of "hard core" boaters to change anything
(witness the resistance to multihulls in the sail community, and the
resistance to cats by the power community)...

I was just thinking that maybe some of y'all out there had some ideas
.... God know I won't laugh, 'cause anything you can describe is
waaaaay beyond anything I know anything about ...

just ruminating ...started surfing ... thought the topic was
intriguing ...

Gary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

I don't know ...the chief weakness in existing do-it-yourself boats is the
apparent lack of the bikini-attraction force. It's probably some kind of
static charge thing that draws polyester swimsuits closer, but have you
noticed that fiberglass speed boats tend to attract the most bikinis?
Whenever a bikini gets close, it sticks right to the boat with such strength
that the gal wearing the bikini is stuck flat on her back for hours. We've
got to figure this out and fix home-builts so they work better ...maybe wood
is a bikini repellent? I know aluminum is ...same with forward-slanting
windshields...

Brian

--
My boat project: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass" target="_blank">http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass</a>


"Chris" <rrufiange.TakeThisOut@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:nzMrb.66630$jW5.786585@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
 >
 > "gjoyce" <gjoyce.TakeThisOut@optonline.net> wrote in message
 > news:4d1e724.0311100419.52d9f094@posting.google.com...
  > > I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction.
  > > I've been
  > > cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
  > > what you
  > > designer-types might think.
  > >
  > > Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
  > > propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?
  > >
  > >
  > > Thanks
  > >
  > > Gary P. Joyce
 >
 > Well, I think they'll be working alot more IR/Radar-defeating surfaces
into
 > construction, stealth technologies, crew-automation...
 >
 > I see afew multihulls on the design table, lots of efforts to reduce
 > ship/crew size, increase efficiency, defenses seem to be focusing towards
 > anti-missile lately. If you'll notice, alot more design-process proposals
 > are coming out for smaller naval vessels, with less focus on the larger
 > carrier vessels. The Aircraft Carrier of today doesn't look much
different
 > than it did in WW2-era. Not so for the destroyer or frigate of today's
 > Navy.
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

"Brian D" <briandNS RemoveThis @advantagecomposites.comNS> wrote in message news:<jFYrb.165150$HS4.1341475@attbi_s01>...
 > I don't know ...the chief weakness in existing do-it-yourself boats is the
 > apparent lack of the bikini-attraction force. It's probably some kind of
 > static charge thing that draws polyester swimsuits closer, but have you
 > noticed that fiberglass speed boats tend to attract the most bikinis?
 > Whenever a bikini gets close, it sticks right to the boat with such strength
 > that the gal wearing the bikini is stuck flat on her back for hours. We've
 > got to figure this out and fix home-builts so they work better ...maybe wood
 > is a bikini repellent? I know aluminum is ...same with forward-slanting
 > windshields...
 >
 > Brian

Brian,
Do like that boat ... that's some jon you're doing, given the space problem!

gary

 >
 > --
<font color=purple> > My boat project: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass</font" target="_blank">http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass</font</a>>
 >
 >
 > "Chris" <rrufiange RemoveThis @cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
 > news:nzMrb.66630$jW5.786585@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
  > >
  > > "gjoyce" <gjoyce RemoveThis @optonline.net> wrote in message
  > > news:4d1e724.0311100419.52d9f094@posting.google.com...
   > > > I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction.
   > > > I've been
   > > > cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
   > > > what you
   > > > designer-types might think.
   > > >
   > > > Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
   > > > propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > Thanks
   > > >
   > > > Gary P. Joyce
  > >
  > > Well, I think they'll be working alot more IR/Radar-defeating surfaces
 > into
  > > construction, stealth technologies, crew-automation...
  > >
  > > I see afew multihulls on the design table, lots of efforts to reduce
  > > ship/crew size, increase efficiency, defenses seem to be focusing towards
  > > anti-missile lately. If you'll notice, alot more design-process proposals
  > > are coming out for smaller naval vessels, with less focus on the larger
  > > carrier vessels. The Aircraft Carrier of today doesn't look much
 > different
  > > than it did in WW2-era. Not so for the destroyer or frigate of today's
  > > Navy.
  > >
  > >
  > ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

According to AutoCAD, the boat fits as long as I stop building after the
V-berth goes in. At that point, I need to move the boat to a shelter or
larger shop. A buddy of mine has some barns on his grass farm. Another guy
has a large shop that could accommodate 2 or 3 boats like this. Both have
said I could use them ...but I'd rather avoid it if I can. Might build a
bow-roof shelter next to Garage #3. I have 14' between structure and fence
line there, and can go 40' deep if I need to (only need 28' plus or minus).
I find that figuring out the finer details as you go works best ..."Just do
it!" (but with just a little forethought so you know if there will be a
solution to the various challenges along the way.)

Brian

--
My boat project: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass" target="_blank">http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass</a>


"gjoyce" <gjoyce DeleteThis @optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4d1e724.0311111652.431ea089@posting.google.com...
 > "Brian D" <briandNS DeleteThis @advantagecomposites.comNS> wrote in message
news:<jFYrb.165150$HS4.1341475@attbi_s01>...
[snip]
 >
 > Brian,
 > Do like that boat ... that's some job you're doing, given the space
problem!
 >
 > gary
 >
  > >
  > > --
<font color=green>  > > My boat project: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass</font" target="_blank">http://www.advantagecomposites.com/tongass</font</a>>
  > >
  > >
  > > "Chris" <rrufiange DeleteThis @cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
  > > news:nzMrb.66630$jW5.786585@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
   > > >
   > > > "gjoyce" <gjoyce DeleteThis @optonline.net> wrote in message
   > > > news:4d1e724.0311100419.52d9f094@posting.google.com...
   > > > > I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct
direction.
   > > > > I've been
   > > > > cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
   > > > > what you
   > > > > designer-types might think.
   > > > >
   > > > > Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
   > > > > propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?
   > > > >
   > > > >
   > > > > Thanks
   > > > >
   > > > > Gary P. Joyce
   > > >
   > > > Well, I think they'll be working alot more IR/Radar-defeating surfaces
  > > into
   > > > construction, stealth technologies, crew-automation...
   > > >
   > > > I see afew multihulls on the design table, lots of efforts to reduce
   > > > ship/crew size, increase efficiency, defenses seem to be focusing
towards
   > > > anti-missile lately. If you'll notice, alot more design-process
proposals
   > > > are coming out for smaller naval vessels, with less focus on the
larger
   > > > carrier vessels. The Aircraft Carrier of today doesn't look much
  > > different
   > > > than it did in WW2-era. Not so for the destroyer or frigate of
today's
   > > > Navy.
   > > >
   > > >
   > > ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

"Brian D" (briandNS@advantagecomposites.comNS) writes:
 > According to AutoCAD,...

 > I find that figuring out the finer details as you go works best ..."Just do
 > it!" (but with just a little forethought so you know if there will be a
 > solution to the various challenges along the way.)

I've been trying to work out all the details for a 15 ft plywood sailboat
with a cabin on paper as an exercise. I don't plan to build the boat. It's
frustrating. I was able to make a cardboard model no problem. I have a
clear image of the boat in my imagination. Getting it on paper is a
challenge. Both the cardboard model and the paper plan are abstractions
from a desired reality but the model seems less abstract. I've done some
thinking on mathematical and other abstractions over the years. The best
ones have the simplest set of essential information.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Hi

ag384.RemoveThis@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (William R. Watt) wrote in message news:<botfj8$63p$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>...

 > I've been trying to work out all the details for a 15 ft plywood sailboat
 > with a cabin on paper as an exercise. I don't plan to build the boat. It's
 > frustrating. I was able to make a cardboard model no problem. I have a
 > clear image of the boat in my imagination. Getting it on paper is a
 > challenge. Both the cardboard model and the paper plan are abstractions
 > from a desired reality but the model seems less abstract. I've done some
 > thinking on mathematical and other abstractions over the years. The best
 > ones have the simplest set of essential information.

Realy , -------- projecting a sailboat at 15 feet with a cabin I would
think is about the edge of what is even possible. Not that you can't
find some way to place a cabin and a rig and a place to handle rope
and rudder, but realy 15 feet for a sailboat with cabin is a challance
,that very few profesional designers would ever dare try.
I would suggest somthing like a canvas top , some clever idea where
you make the intire hull into cabin when you need a cabin and take it
away when the wind only shuld meet the sails not the cabin sides,
------ again 16 feet with a cabin and decent sail abilities ; I find
that almost impossible.
But about getting it on the paper and perform a scale model I don't
understand your trouble, ------ as long as you have a printer and have
software that will produce sections this shuldn't be that big a
problem, unless you make the most common foult, to use to thick
cardboard or don't prepare having the right small spanners or the
right glue. Did you try Aero Ply, that you must be able to find down
0.4 millimeter thick 3 layer ? It is a wonderfull material for scale
models, as you can produce the paneling in a thickness that work
"realistic" beside this type of model builder Ply is strong as steel
,can be cut easy and glue perfect beside you can sand it.

You realy want to make a scale model ,then do you fiddle with the old
methods or have you found some software that will do a complete
unfolding ?

P.C.

P.C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Check this (twin keel) article out ... the site has some other interesting
articles ... <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html</a>


"gjoyce" <gjoyce.RemoveThis@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4d1e724.0311100419.52d9f094@posting.google.com...
 > I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction.
 > I've been
 > cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
 > what you
 > designer-types might think.
 >
 > Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
 > propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?
 >
 >
 > Thanks
 >
 > Gary P. Joyce<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Twin keel design does not seem very new to me - I am sure I have seen it
before, just can't remember where right now...

bowgus wrote:
 > Check this (twin keel) article out ... the site has some other interesting
<font color=purple> > articles ... <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html</font</a>>
 >
 >
 > "gjoyce" <gjoyce DeleteThis @optonline.net> wrote in message
 > news:4d1e724.0311100419.52d9f094@posting.google.com...
 >
  >>I figured this erudite group could point me in the correct direction.
  >>I've been
  >>cruising thru a variety of naval research sites, but was wondering
  >>what you
  >>designer-types might think.
  >>
  >>Where do you see hull design - shapes, materials, coatings,
  >>propulsion, etc. - going in the near - and not so near - future?
  >>
  >>
  >>Thanks
  >>
  >>Gary P. Joyce
 >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

William R. Watt wrote:
 > The best
 > ones have the simplest set of essential information.

Man, ain't that the truth. You got to SIMPLIFY.
But I don't understand, if you can build a model, why
can't you draw it?
I tend to take an existing design, and change it.
This works out a lot of the basic stuff, like ergonomics
and scantlings easily and then it can be tweaked to adapt
to whatever.

Everyone learns from everyone else
who succeeds in putting their work out there.

I approach boat design through the drawings of others.
If one wants to build something that is as close to the
designer's idea, a drawing works well in looking at all of
the details.
Often, after studying drawings of a boat, I am surprised
when I see the boat actually in the water.
Not that the boat is any different then what I know the drawing
says it should be, but there is something else that comes through
that is not in the drawing.
Some people say boats are alive. I'd say some are more alive than others.
Some people approach design instinctively. They visualize a
design, then try to build it.
Others try to choose a set of parameters and then design
a structure to deal with it.
There is a linear path that either approach takes.
They vary depending on where the designer wants to go.
When I taught myself to draw boats full size (loft), I realised
how much easier it was to then build the boat.
The drawing gave me a ready made pattern for every piece in the boat.

Mabey it could be looked at this way.
In order to communicate your idea to somebody else, you have a number of
choices. Let's call them your Media choices.
So far you have used the written word to communicate your idea.
Other Media choices might be photographs of the boat model.
Drawing would be another.
Video might be another.

I notice that people who sell boat designs usually use drawings.
That doesn't mean they have to.
I can imagine selling a design for a kit that has no drawings at all.
For instance, you display photos of your design...the actual boat.
People download a bunch of files..binary code and save it to a floppy.
They bring the disk to their local "guy with a computer driven router"
He cuts the design for the guy and the guy assembles it based on a
sequence of written instructions telling him how and in what order.
The advantages of this method are obvious. No paper..shipping...etc.
The disadvantages are that there might not be a "guy with a computer
driven router" willing to do it.
But another hidden disadvantage is that many people are used to drawings
and won't like paying for a "computer file".

So, why do you even want to "get it down on paper"?
Is it to sell the design?
You mentioned that you don't plan on building it.
Who will build it?


 > "Brian D" (briandNS@advantagecomposites.comNS) writes:
 >
  >>According to AutoCAD,...
 >
 >
  >>I find that figuring out the finer details as you go works best ..."Just do
  >>it!" (but with just a little forethought so you know if there will be a
  >>solution to the various challenges along the way.)
 >
 >
 > I've been trying to work out all the details for a 15 ft plywood sailboat
 > with a cabin on paper as an exercise. I don't plan to build the boat. It's
 > frustrating. I was able to make a cardboard model no problem. I have a
 > clear image of the boat in my imagination. Getting it on paper is a
 > challenge. Both the cardboard model and the paper plan are abstractions
 > from a desired reality but the model seems less abstract. I've done some
 > thinking on mathematical and other abstractions over the years. The best
 > ones have the simplest set of essential information.
 >
 > --
 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
 > homepage: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm" target="_blank">www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm</a>
 > warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:30:59 GMT, "Brian D"
<briandNS.RemoveThis@advantagecomposites.comNS> wrote something
.......and in reply I say!:

 >A buddy of mine has some barns on his grass farm.
????????????

******************************************************************************************
Until I do the other one,this one means nothing
Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

!!
<")
_/ )
( )
_//- \__/<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going? 

Old Nick <nsnfwhite.RemoveThis@iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:<2vd4rvkn94k44nt3r55jnlcm0a433ceddl.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 02:30:59 GMT, "Brian D"
> <briandNS.RemoveThis@advantagecomposites.comNS> wrote something
> ......and in reply I say!:
>
> >A buddy of mine has some barns on his grass farm.
> ????????????

I think he is out on Long Island. They have a lot of Sod (grass) farms
there. My inlaws own a bunch of acerage on shore road out near the
tip, we hit golf balls out there last time we were there. Before that,
the family grew potatoes there.
Scotty
>
> ******************************************************************************************
> Until I do the other one,this one means nothing
> Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
>
> remove ns from my header address to reply via email
>
> !!
> <")
> _/ )
> ( )
> _//- \__/
 >> Stay informed about: Where is hull design going?