More info for the Dreaded Debate

 > timingram DeleteThis @isp.com (Tim Ingram)

Typed a lot of untrue drivel.

You know what I find when I look at statements that indicate such a high death
rate among canoeist and kayakers? That the information came from either your
website or one of your articles and the person that is mouthing it was too
stupid
to actually check the numbers. Of course, you don't want to talk about that, do
you.
You have deliberately distorted the numbers to exploit new paddlers into buying
your product.

I've already told everyone that there were 103 total canoe and kayak deaths in
the year 2000 out of a total of 701 total fatalities. Yet the Canoeist,
kayakers and rafters make up 40 percent of the recreational boating use in the
US. So 40 percent of the recreational boating is only responsible for less
than 15 percent of the fatalities. Perhaps you should try pandering your
sponsons to the Jet Ski industry, which actually does have the highest rate of
accidents in recreational boating.

The simple act of wearing a PFD would eliminate more fatalities all across the
recreational boating world than all the sponsons ever made.
SYOTR
Larry C.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Dear Larry, Brian, Rick and Himmler:

We see your confirmation today that you will lie (even include rafts
to wildly distort USCG stats), to leave people dead in the water
wearing PFDs or not.

You will kill for little money, or none at all.

Regarding rafts: Canoes and kayaks can be very good life rafts as my
links below describe.

Why not sell canoes and kayaks by safety. Not as much fun as killing I
suppose.

Your pathetic little newsgroup is only useful as a source for this
study into the murder of US citizens, including kids.

Tim


timingram.TakeThisOut@isp.com (Tim Ingram) wrote in message news:<fd1f6d.0402270535.5a8b66e6.TakeThisOut@posting.google.com>...
 > See the 1st 2 messages after Kait O'Hara, analyst hired by the US
 > Coast Guard, requested information from these august groups. Steve
 > Scarborough and Mr Reichart come to mind. The stats per 100,000 far
 > exeed US vehicle deaths.
 >
 > In fact, canoe and kayak deaths far exceed any death rate in US
 > history. As I have said before, this high rate is only possible by
 > means of a deliberate and planned intention to take the lives of US
 > citizens.
 >
 > They are kids: Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, YMCA campers; and moms, dads,
 > brothers and sisters.
 >
 > The moral ethic of these newsgroups, as I have said before, would make
 > Himmler, or another hate-filled person content. It is very easy to
 > murder innocent people, who are unsuspecting, and naturally trust that
 > the instructors' lobby would not try to kill them, or mislead the US
 > Coast Guard.
 >
 > Water is an especially deadly MO (rate of body heat loss 25 times the
 > rate in air.) Canoes and kayaks without a built-in means of
 > self-rescue are extremely deadly.
 >
 > Instruction is a murderous bait and switch scam, detailed in the
 > following book for all recent canoe and kayak instruction books: Canoe
 > and Kayak Scam Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to
 > Save Victims paste in address bar of browser if link doesn't work:
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818" target="_blank">http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818</a>)
 >
 > Tim
 >
<font color=purple> > Reference: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html</font</a>><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: More info for the Dreaded Debate 

"Tim Ingram" <timingram.RemoveThis@isp.com> wrote in message
news:fd1f6d.0402270535.5a8b66e6@posting.google.com...
 >....As I have said before, this high rate is only possible by
 > means of a deliberate and planned intention to take the lives of US
 > citizens...

Take it to the courts, then. You could make a lot more money and do a lot
more social good from a class-action suit than by trying to sell your
product to an unwilling audience.

--riverman<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Tim,

What's you view on the auto-inflate type of sponsoon that only comes out
during an emergency vs your which are "inflated" all the time?
 >> Stay informed about: More info for the Dreaded Debate 

Matt Langenfeld wrote:

 > Tim,
 >
 > What's you view on the auto-inflate type of sponsoon that only comes out
 > during an emergency vs your which are "inflated" all the time?

Where did you get that impression?
I used Tim's original Sea Wing sponsons in a sea kayak symposium rescue
class over 10 years ago. Only some attachment clips were pre-installed on
the kayak. We deliberately capsized/exited and then attached the sponsons
and inflated them. Then we reentered, pumped out the cockpit, and finally
deflated and removed the sponsons. The process was pretty similar to the
use of paddlefloats which were also used in the class along with assorted
types of assisted rescue.
Seems that what he's promoting more recently to the Coast Guard is the
auto-inflate type of device (the ones I used were only manually inflated).<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: More info for the Dreaded Debate 

looking at his website, I see some plastic ones attached to a surf rider.

Peter wrote:

 > Matt Langenfeld wrote:
 >
  >> Tim,
  >>
  >> What's you view on the auto-inflate type of sponsoon that only comes
  >> out during an emergency vs your which are "inflated" all the time?
 >
 >
 > Where did you get that impression?
 > I used Tim's original Sea Wing sponsons in a sea kayak symposium
 > rescue class over 10 years ago. Only some attachment clips were
 > pre-installed on the kayak. We deliberately capsized/exited and then
 > attached the sponsons and inflated them. Then we reentered, pumped
 > out the cockpit, and finally deflated and removed the sponsons. The
 > process was pretty similar to the use of paddlefloats which were also
 > used in the class along with assorted types of assisted rescue.
 > Seems that what he's promoting more recently to the Coast Guard is the
 > auto-inflate type of device (the ones I used were only manually
 > inflated).
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: More info for the Dreaded Debate 

Tim,

I don't visit this group often, and will admit to being a novice in the area
of water sports.

I have, however, been involved in sales/marketing for over 20 years. I
gotta tell, ya...you're killing yourself here. Even if your product had
everything to be the next "killer app", no one will buy it if your sales
approach is similar to your remarks in this thread.

Here's what I am hearing..."Hey guys, I have an absolutely fabulous product
that will save lives. Obviously you guys are pathetic, liars, and idiots
because you don't see how great my idea is." Man...that's a tough
sell...I've been thrown out of clients offices for far, far less than that.

Perhaps a new approach is in order. Might be worth thinking about.

G. Evans

"Tim Ingram" <timingram DeleteThis @isp.com> wrote in message
news:fd1f6d.0402280400.21b0dff7@posting.google.com...
 > Dear Larry, Brian, Rick and Himmler:
 >
 > We see your confirmation today that you will lie (even include rafts
 > to wildly distort USCG stats), to leave people dead in the water
 > wearing PFDs or not.
 >
 > You will kill for little money, or none at all.
 >
 > Regarding rafts: Canoes and kayaks can be very good life rafts as my
 > links below describe.
 >
 > Why not sell canoes and kayaks by safety. Not as much fun as killing I
 > suppose.
 >
 > Your pathetic little newsgroup is only useful as a source for this
 > study into the murder of US citizens, including kids.
 >
 > Tim
 >
 >
 > timingram DeleteThis @isp.com (Tim Ingram) wrote in message
news:<fd1f6d.0402270535.5a8b66e6 DeleteThis @posting.google.com>...
  > > See the 1st 2 messages after Kait O'Hara, analyst hired by the US
  > > Coast Guard, requested information from these august groups. Steve
  > > Scarborough and Mr Reichart come to mind. The stats per 100,000 far
  > > exeed US vehicle deaths.
  > >
  > > In fact, canoe and kayak deaths far exceed any death rate in US
  > > history. As I have said before, this high rate is only possible by
  > > means of a deliberate and planned intention to take the lives of US
  > > citizens.
  > >
  > > They are kids: Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, YMCA campers; and moms, dads,
  > > brothers and sisters.
  > >
  > > The moral ethic of these newsgroups, as I have said before, would make
  > > Himmler, or another hate-filled person content. It is very easy to
  > > murder innocent people, who are unsuspecting, and naturally trust that
  > > the instructors' lobby would not try to kill them, or mislead the US
  > > Coast Guard.
  > >
  > > Water is an especially deadly MO (rate of body heat loss 25 times the
  > > rate in air.) Canoes and kayaks without a built-in means of
  > > self-rescue are extremely deadly.
  > >
  > > Instruction is a murderous bait and switch scam, detailed in the
  > > following book for all recent canoe and kayak instruction books: Canoe
  > > and Kayak Scam Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to
  > > Save Victims paste in address bar of browser if link doesn't work:
  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818" target="_blank">http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818</a>)
  > >
  > > Tim
  > >
<font color=green>  > > Reference: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html</font</a>><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: More info for the Dreaded Debate 

Matt Langenfeld wrote:

 > looking at his website, I see some plastic ones attached to a surf rider.

Just looked there and don't see what you're referring to. There's a
picture of a sit-on-top with flared hull shape with a caption that says it
has built-in 'sponsons' and several pictures of kayaks with the inflatable
yellow nylon Sea Wing sponsons; plus some of a canoe with larger inflatable
sponsons. Here's the ordering information:
"Sea Wings Sponsons
All sponsons are 40" X 6" in diameter for any kayak, double or single, due
to relative buoyancy leverage, regardless of kayak size. All necessary
hardware, straps, instructions etc. included with each pair. They inflate
in 6 puffs each.
They roll up together and stow compactly, 8" X 3" in diameter. The 200
denier are each under half a pound. The 400 (twice the thickness of the
nylon, double the resistance to abrasion), weigh only 3 ounces more than
the 200.

In US Dollars: (Including Expresspost and Insurance) Type of Material
Color Cost Expresspost
200 Nylon/Urethane Deep Yellow $98 $8= $106 US total
400 Nylon/Urethane Deep Blue $119 $8= $127 US total"

The lighter yellow ones look just like what I remember using at the sea
kayak symposium. I don't see any rigid plastic sponsons for sale at his site.
 >
 > Peter wrote:
 >
  >> Matt Langenfeld wrote:
  >>
   >>> Tim,
   >>>
   >>> What's you view on the auto-inflate type of sponsoon that only comes
   >>> out during an emergency vs your which are "inflated" all the time?
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> Where did you get that impression?
  >> I used Tim's original Sea Wing sponsons in a sea kayak symposium
  >> rescue class over 10 years ago. Only some attachment clips were
  >> pre-installed on the kayak. We deliberately capsized/exited and then
  >> attached the sponsons and inflated them. Then we reentered, pumped
  >> out the cockpit, and finally deflated and removed the sponsons. The
  >> process was pretty similar to the use of paddlefloats which were also
  >> used in the class along with assorted types of assisted rescue.
  >> Seems that what he's promoting more recently to the Coast Guard is the
  >> auto-inflate type of device (the ones I used were only manually
  >> inflated).
  >>
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: More info for the Dreaded Debate 

Gotta agree.

Mr. Ingram takes an extraordinarily offensive approach, in trying to
publicisize what may well be an excellent product. Nothing I have seen
leads me to think favorably of him or his company.

Bug off, Tim. I have a lifetime in "water sports", 20+ years in sea kayaks,
and my 8 year old has been soloing in kayaks for 3 years. If I see a
similar product from a competitor, I will take a long, serious look. But I
will not do business with you.

Curtis (aka Sal's Dad)

"Greg Evans" <fetchitupNOSPAM DeleteThis @vis-info.com> wrote in message
news:1042prniuc86934@corp.supernews.com...
 > Tim,
 >
 > I don't visit this group often, and will admit to being a novice in the
area
 > of water sports.
 >
 > I have, however, been involved in sales/marketing for over 20 years. I
 > gotta tell, ya...you're killing yourself here. Even if your product had
 > everything to be the next "killer app", no one will buy it if your sales
 > approach is similar to your remarks in this thread.
 >
 > Here's what I am hearing..."Hey guys, I have an absolutely fabulous
product
 > that will save lives. Obviously you guys are pathetic, liars, and idiots
 > because you don't see how great my idea is." Man...that's a tough
 > sell...I've been thrown out of clients offices for far, far less than
that.
 >
 > Perhaps a new approach is in order. Might be worth thinking about.
 >
 > G. Evans
 >
 > "Tim Ingram" <timingram DeleteThis @isp.com> wrote in message
 > news:fd1f6d.0402280400.21b0dff7@posting.google.com...
  > > Dear Larry, Brian, Rick and Himmler:
  > >
  > > We see your confirmation today that you will lie (even include rafts
  > > to wildly distort USCG stats), to leave people dead in the water
  > > wearing PFDs or not.
  > >
  > > You will kill for little money, or none at all.
  > >
  > > Regarding rafts: Canoes and kayaks can be very good life rafts as my
  > > links below describe.
  > >
  > > Why not sell canoes and kayaks by safety. Not as much fun as killing I
  > > suppose.
  > >
  > > Your pathetic little newsgroup is only useful as a source for this
  > > study into the murder of US citizens, including kids.
  > >
  > > Tim
  > >
  > >
  > > timingram DeleteThis @isp.com (Tim Ingram) wrote in message
 > news:<fd1f6d.0402270535.5a8b66e6 DeleteThis @posting.google.com>...
   > > > See the 1st 2 messages after Kait O'Hara, analyst hired by the US
   > > > Coast Guard, requested information from these august groups. Steve
   > > > Scarborough and Mr Reichart come to mind. The stats per 100,000 far
   > > > exeed US vehicle deaths.
   > > >
   > > > In fact, canoe and kayak deaths far exceed any death rate in US
   > > > history. As I have said before, this high rate is only possible by
   > > > means of a deliberate and planned intention to take the lives of US
   > > > citizens.
   > > >
   > > > They are kids: Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, YMCA campers; and moms, dads,
   > > > brothers and sisters.
   > > >
   > > > The moral ethic of these newsgroups, as I have said before, would make
   > > > Himmler, or another hate-filled person content. It is very easy to
   > > > murder innocent people, who are unsuspecting, and naturally trust that
   > > > the instructors' lobby would not try to kill them, or mislead the US
   > > > Coast Guard.
   > > >
   > > > Water is an especially deadly MO (rate of body heat loss 25 times the
   > > > rate in air.) Canoes and kayaks without a built-in means of
   > > > self-rescue are extremely deadly.
   > > >
   > > > Instruction is a murderous bait and switch scam, detailed in the
   > > > following book for all recent canoe and kayak instruction books: Canoe
   > > > and Kayak Scam Kills 1000 Americans: US Coast Guard Studies Device to
   > > > Save Victims paste in address bar of browser if link doesn't work:
   > > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818" target="_blank">http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/16818</a>)
   > > >
   > > > Tim
   > > >
<font color=brown>   > > > Reference: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.bconnex.net/~timkayak/canoe.html</font</a>>
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Please STOP!!

John Kuthe...
 >> Stay informed about: More info for the Dreaded Debate 

Received via email from USCG 3 March 2004

"A contractor has completed the Sponson report for the Office of Boating
Safety. It is currently being reviewed by the National Association of State
Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA), Boats & Associated Equipment Committee.
I expect to have their input within the month and hope to release the report
shortly thereafter.

We will attempt to make an electronic version of the report
available to the public via the Office of Boating website at
http://www.uscgboating.org/ .
Richard V Kanehl
Recreational Boating Safety Specialist
USCG, G-OPB-3, 202-267-0976"
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