??? about keeping refrigerators cold

On 14 Jul 2004 15:45:54 GMT, gould0738.TakeThisOut@aol.com (Gould 0738) wrote:

 >No shore power at the dock?

Yes there is shore power, and since I'm there the majority of the time
don't want to get rid of the nice big frig because it's so convenient.

 >You could fill the freezer section with "Blue Ice" bags

That sounds like the type of thing I'm hoping to learn more about.
If you'd care to tell me a bit more I'd appreciate it. Meanwhile I'll see
what Google has to offer.

 >and then take them out
 >of the freezer and put them in the refrigerator portion when you shut down, but
 >that won't be anywhere nearly as effective as running the compressor and
 >evaporator.
 >
 >It sounds like you have an AC refrigerator,
 >no shore power,

It's an AC refrigerator, and AC shore power the majority of the time.

 >and you're setting the boat up to run your AC generator to keep
 >the beeer cold?

If it was just beer I'd only have to fool with an ice chest. But it's beer
plus everything else...including frozen food that I'd like to keep as well
frozen as possible.

 >Or you've got a dual voltage refrigerator and the genset is running to recharge
 >your house bank?

If I can get the frig to stay cold longer, I can greatly cut down on the
time that the generator has to run, the number of times it has to be started
and stopped, the amount of gas it uses, the number of times it has to be
re-fuled, and how much time I have to spend hearing it run.

 >A little more information might get you more helpful responses.

Thanks for any help people can give!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

<dh_ld RemoveThis @nomail.com> wrote:

 > If I can get the frig to stay cold longer, I can greatly cut down on
the
 > time that the generator has to run, the number of times it has to be
started
 > and stopped, the amount of gas it uses, the number of times it has to be
 > re-fuled, and how much time I have to spend hearing it run.
 >

You might be able to cut down on the number of times the generator
has to run, but I don't think you'll be cutting down on the about of
gas it uses, # of times to re-fule, or the general efficiency. It will take
that generator/refrigerator combo some specific amount of fuel and
time to cool that fridge & it's contents. Adding things like freezer
bricks will just mean it runs longer to cool/freeze them. Then, once
cold/frozen, the refrigerator may not have to be started again.

There is, I'm told, some efficiency advantage to having more
items (mass) in the refrigerator. I believe that's because they
will accept & hold the cold better than air will.

The other line of thought here is...can you make the refrigerator
more efficient by adding insulation around it. You probably
don't have room for that on a boat, but it's a thought. Another
idea: if that unit is old and/or not keeping it's cool maybe a
new unit will be more efficient at generating & keeping cool

Obvious but...the less times you open the door....

Good luck.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:06:14 GMT, dh_ld.TakeThisOut@nomail.com wrote:

[snip]

 > If it was just beer I'd only have to fool with an ice chest. But it's beer
 >plus everything else...including frozen food that I'd like to keep as well
 >frozen as possible.
 >
  >>Or you've got a dual voltage refrigerator and the genset is running to recharge
  >>your house bank?
 >
 > If I can get the frig to stay cold longer, I can greatly cut down on the
 >time that the generator has to run, the number of times it has to be started
 >and stopped, the amount of gas it uses, the number of times it has to be
 >re-fuled, and how much time I have to spend hearing it run.

I'm confused. If you're connected to shore power, why would your generator ever
have to kick on? Do you not have some sort of battery tender?

I agree with the suggestions regarding "blue ice" or some equivalent; a
refrigerator is just a heat exchanging device, and allowing some heat exchange
to occur *inside* the box (using blue ice) will help offset the exchange from
inside the box to the outside.

Joe Parsons<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

Joe Parsons wrote:

 > I'm confused. If you're connected to shore power, why would your
 > generator ever have to kick on? Do you not have some sort of battery
 > tender?

I think what he's saying is that it's connected to shore power while he's at
the dock, and that's fine. But when he takes it out on the water for a
couple of days, he has to use a generator to power it, since it's AC only.

It seems to me that blue ice would do the trick. It would get thoroughly
frozen while at the dock (with shore power) and then the fridge would just
act like an ice box while out on the water. If he was out long enough that
the blue ice all melted and he needed to power the fridge again, he'd have
a choice: Leaving the blue ice in the fridge would mean it would take
longer (more fuel) for the generator-powered fridge to refreeze everything,
but he could go longer before having to power up the generator again.
Taking the melted blue ice out of the fridge would make cooling the
contents easier (more efficient), but he'd have to do it again sooner.

Of course, if he has enough blue ice, and he's only disconnected from the
dock for a couple of days at a time, he may never have to fire up the
generator. More insulation would help, too.

Shawn.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

dh_ld RemoveThis @nomail.com wrote:
 > I have a large refrigerator and don't want to get rid of it since I'm
 > on the boat a lot, and the majority of the time at the dock. But do
 > like to go out for a couple of days each week, and the biggest
 > issue is the frig getting too warm unless the generator runs more
 > than I like it to. Do they make good cold packs of some kind that
 > can be frozen and re-frozen, and would help keep it colder without
 > so much use of the generator?

Like big blocks of home made ice? Phase change chemical salt "cold
packs" could offer some similar assistance.

Keep the door closed. Only more insulation can really help you.
Insulate especially between the compressor, radiator and the cold
chest, possibly increasing the insulated space between them by
extending the refrigerant lines.

Have you considered the technology of CO2 (dry) ice, or liquid
nitrogen? You could pump up a few gallons of Ln2 for use while the
engine is not used, etc. Well insulated dewars can keep Ln2 in
storage for some time, but the engine must still produce the energy
to produce this cold storage heat sink.

Some will say that using much dry ice may poison occupants during
sleep. Ln2 could displace O2, but not so likely as CO2, depending on
equipment failures.

Ln2 is relatively lightweight, and can be stored in floatation
space, ie. forepeak, etc. Piped into the freezer under the control
of a cryogenic thermostat, it could keep the contents cool, and
could possibly be "recharged" by the addition of more liquid
nitrogen, poured from a transport dewar to operational dewar aboard
the boat. It is a form of phase change heat energy storage system,
where it's evaporation provides a considerable heat sink.

Liquid nitrogen is not scarce, only a little obscure. Food
processing plants make and use a lot of it. 5 gallons of it would
likely keep your fridge cold for weeks, if it was well insulated and
kept closed.

I do nnot know how common small Ln2 compressor are, or how available.

Liquid N2 boils and evaporates while in the dewar, dependant on it's
insulation efficiency. What comes off of the stored container is
very cold nitrogen gas. Cast off evaporated N2, still cold, could be
used to augment other air conditioning (refridgeration) systems.

I suppose this would be considered radical tech.

Terry k<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

The way that this problem is normally solved is by adding a standard
icebox 12 volt conversion unit in the existing refrigerator. There are
several manufacturers that have thin plate evaporator coils that will
fit the rear wall of existing refrigerators. In the new Boat Works
magazine there is a article of a similar conversion to a 110 volt
refrigerator.

Storing energy in cold packs will not cool the box to refrigerator
temperatures.

From the author of four books on boat refrigeration
For a slide show on boat refrigeration go to;
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.kollmann-marine.com" target="_blank">http://www.kollmann-marine.com</a>





Terry Spragg <tspragg567nospam RemoveThis @rogers.com> wrote in message news:<xRdJc.937938$Ar.789720@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...
 > dh_ld RemoveThis @nomail.com wrote:
  > > I have a large refrigerator and don't want to get rid of it since I'm
  > > on the boat a lot, and the majority of the time at the dock. But do
  > > like to go out for a couple of days each week, and the biggest
  > > issue is the frig getting too warm unless the generator runs more
  > > than I like it to. Do they make good cold packs of some kind that
  > > can be frozen and re-frozen, and would help keep it colder without
  > > so much use of the generator?
 >
 > Like big blocks of home made ice? Phase change chemical salt "cold
 > packs" could offer some similar assistance.
 >
 > Keep the door closed. Only more insulation can really help you.
 > Insulate especially between the compressor, radiator and the cold
 > chest, possibly increasing the insulated space between them by
 > extending the refrigerant lines.
 >
 > Have you considered the technology of CO2 (dry) ice, or liquid
 > nitrogen? You could pump up a few gallons of Ln2 for use while the
 > engine is not used, etc. Well insulated dewars can keep Ln2 in
 > storage for some time, but the engine must still produce the energy
 > to produce this cold storage heat sink.
 >
 > Some will say that using much dry ice may poison occupants during
 > sleep. Ln2 could displace O2, but not so likely as CO2, depending on
 > equipment failures.
 >
 > Ln2 is relatively lightweight, and can be stored in floatation
 > space, ie. forepeak, etc. Piped into the freezer under the control
 > of a cryogenic thermostat, it could keep the contents cool, and
 > could possibly be "recharged" by the addition of more liquid
 > nitrogen, poured from a transport dewar to operational dewar aboard
 > the boat. It is a form of phase change heat energy storage system,
 > where it's evaporation provides a considerable heat sink.
 >
 > Liquid nitrogen is not scarce, only a little obscure. Food
 > processing plants make and use a lot of it. 5 gallons of it would
 > likely keep your fridge cold for weeks, if it was well insulated and
 > kept closed.
 >
 > I do nnot know how common small Ln2 compressor are, or how available.
 >
 > Liquid N2 boils and evaporates while in the dewar, dependant on it's
 > insulation efficiency. What comes off of the stored container is
 > very cold nitrogen gas. Cast off evaporated N2, still cold, could be
 > used to augment other air conditioning (refridgeration) systems.
 >
 > I suppose this would be considered radical tech.
 >
 > Terry k<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

Just curious... are propane refridgerators legal on boats? We use them in
outposts in Canada every year and they work very well. I never see them in the
US.
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

The way that this problem is normally solved is by adding a standard
icebox 12 volt conversion unit in the existing refrigerator. There are
several manufacturers that have thin plate evaporator coils that will
fit the rear wall of existing refrigerators. In the new Boat Works
magazine there is a article of a similar conversion to a 110 volt
refrigerator.

Storing energy in cold packs will not cool the box to refrigerator
temperatures.

From the author of four books on boat refrigeration
For a slide show on boat refrigeration go to;
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.kollmann-marine.com" target="_blank">http://www.kollmann-marine.com</a>




ccred68046 RemoveThis @aol.comnobull (CCred68046) wrote in message news:<20040714143308.03855.00001062 RemoveThis @mb-m19.aol.com>...
 > Just curious... are propane refridgerators legal on boats? We use them in
 > outposts in Canada every year and they work very well. I never see them in the
 > US.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

I have the same situation & I use an inverter that keeps the fridge cold for
hours - then I run the generator to charge the batteries. Works great for
me.
<dh_ld RemoveThis @nomail.com> wrote in message
news:vojaf05blk07lpdn86oh7qrk8isissj489@4ax.com...
 > I have a large refrigerator and don't want to get rid of it since I'm
 > on the boat a lot, and the majority of the time at the dock. But do
 > like to go out for a couple of days each week, and the biggest
 > issue is the frig getting too warm unless the generator runs more
 > than I like it to. Do they make good cold packs of some kind that
 > can be frozen and re-frozen, and would help keep it colder without
 > so much use of the generator?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

dh_ld.RemoveThis@nomail.com wrote in message news:<37laf0t8jcc7ku3ml059tr2vr0nakue3pj.RemoveThis@4ax.com>...
 > On 14 Jul 2004 15:45:54 GMT, gould0738.RemoveThis@aol.com (Gould 0738) wrote:
 >
  > >No shore power at the dock?
 >
 > Yes there is shore power, and since I'm there the majority of the time
 > don't want to get rid of the nice big frig because it's so convenient.
 >
  > >You could fill the freezer section with "Blue Ice" bags
 >
 > That sounds like the type of thing I'm hoping to learn more about.
 > If you'd care to tell me a bit more I'd appreciate it. Meanwhile I'll see
 > what Google has to offer.
 >
  > >and then take them out
  > >of the freezer and put them in the refrigerator portion when you shut down, but
  > >that won't be anywhere nearly as effective as running the compressor and
  > >evaporator.
  > >
  > >It sounds like you have an AC refrigerator,
  > >no shore power,
 >
 > It's an AC refrigerator, and AC shore power the majority of the time.
 >
  > >and you're setting the boat up to run your AC generator to keep
  > >the beeer cold?
 >
 > If it was just beer I'd only have to fool with an ice chest. But it's beer
 > plus everything else...including frozen food that I'd like to keep as well
 > frozen as possible.
 >
  > >Or you've got a dual voltage refrigerator and the genset is running to recharge
  > >your house bank?
 >
 > If I can get the frig to stay cold longer, I can greatly cut down on the
 > time that the generator has to run, the number of times it has to be started
 > and stopped, the amount of gas it uses, the number of times it has to be
 > re-fuled, and how much time I have to spend hearing it run.
 >
  > >A little more information might get you more helpful responses.
 >
 > Thanks for any help people can give!

what would help is when you have it on shore power, to cram lots of
mass in it, like those blue ice packs Gould was talking about. If you
get the refrig. good and full of food, ice packs, etc., that ice cold
mass will keep the refrig. cooler longer, thus cutting down on the
demand.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

On 14 Jul 2004 16:42:12 -0700, Richard DeleteThis @Kollmann-marine.com (Richard
Kollmann) wrote:
 >The way that this problem is normally solved is by adding a standard
 >icebox 12 volt conversion unit in the existing refrigerator.

===============================================

This is a good solution for the refrigeration business, and in
fairness, does provide some redundancy. The easy and cost effective
solution however is to use an inverter. WalMart is selling a nice
little 700 watt unit (1400 watt peak) for less than $80. I tried it
on my full size home fridge the other day and it ran fine, pulling
down less than 20 amps from a pair of golf cart batts (Sam's club, $45
each). On my old boat I ran a full width under-the-counter fridge
from an inverter. Average 12 volt draw draw was well under 10 amps.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

<dh_ld.RemoveThis@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:vojaf05blk07lpdn86oh7qrk8isissj489@4ax.com...
 > I have a large refrigerator and don't want to get rid of it since I'm
 > on the boat a lot, and the majority of the time at the dock. But do
 > like to go out for a couple of days each week, and the biggest
 > issue is the frig getting too warm unless the generator runs more
 > than I like it to.


My suggestion would be to get an inverter and battery bank that would run it
while you were away from the dock.

I assume that by "large" you mean a standard household, frost free unit.
These things can be real pigs on energy use, as most use as much energy
heating things (and I don't mean the byproduct of cooling) as they do on the
compressor.

A typical frost free refrigerator has

1) a heater around the door sill (open the door, put you hand against the
spot the rubber gasket would rest: it's warm, isn't it?)

2) A heater on the cooling coils, which is energized on a periodic basis to
melt the ice that forms

Many refrigerators also have a heater under the drip tray to evaporate the
water that collects from the defrost cycle!

A non-frost free refrigerator would require about 100 amp-hours a day to
keep things cold. A regular frost free unit would probably require twice
that. If you installed an inverter and a 200 amp-hour battery (two golf
cart batteries in series) and then ran your generator for a few hours each
day you could probably get by for two or three days.

Rod<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold 

I have to go along with the inverter and a decent house battery bank. I
have an 8 cu ft household refrig on boart and run it off the inverter
whenever under power, and can run it about 12 hours (in several 3 hour
stretches) over 2 days. Once packed with food, they keep pretty cold by
themselves - I still have ice in the trays after overnight without power. A
bit of judicious power management makes everything work well.

Jim
"Rod McInnis" <rmcinnis_removespam DeleteThis @iname.com> wrote in message
news:cd7c26028qg@news2.newsguy.com...
 >
 > <dh_ld DeleteThis @nomail.com> wrote in message
 > news:vojaf05blk07lpdn86oh7qrk8isissj489@4ax.com...
  > > I have a large refrigerator and don't want to get rid of it since I'm
  > > on the boat a lot, and the majority of the time at the dock. But do
  > > like to go out for a couple of days each week, and the biggest
  > > issue is the frig getting too warm unless the generator runs more
  > > than I like it to.
 >
 >
 > My suggestion would be to get an inverter and battery bank that would run
it
 > while you were away from the dock.
 >
 > I assume that by "large" you mean a standard household, frost free unit.
 > These things can be real pigs on energy use, as most use as much energy
 > heating things (and I don't mean the byproduct of cooling) as they do on
the
 > compressor.
 >
 > A typical frost free refrigerator has
 >
 > 1) a heater around the door sill (open the door, put you hand against the
 > spot the rubber gasket would rest: it's warm, isn't it?)
 >
 > 2) A heater on the cooling coils, which is energized on a periodic basis
to
 > melt the ice that forms
 >
 > Many refrigerators also have a heater under the drip tray to evaporate the
 > water that collects from the defrost cycle!
 >
 > A non-frost free refrigerator would require about 100 amp-hours a day to
 > keep things cold. A regular frost free unit would probably require twice
 > that. If you installed an inverter and a 200 amp-hour battery (two golf
 > cart batteries in series) and then ran your generator for a few hours each
 > day you could probably get by for two or three days.
 >
 > Rod
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: ??? about keeping refrigerators cold