What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking?

Mary Malmros wrote:
 >
 > BROWN.ELLEN.DeleteThis@COMCAST.NET writes:
 >
  > > Has anyone ever been caught in a lighting storm while Kayaking?
  > > I was wondering if lighting could get you if you kind of slid into
  > > your kayak and had it on top of you while out of the water. I'm just
  > > looking for some tips what others do, seeing iv'e been pretty close to
  > > being caught in a storm.
 >
 > Assuming you've made it to shore -- which is what the paragraph
 > above sounds like -- you'd be better off on top of your kayak rather
 > than with your kayak on top of you. You want to be insulated from
 > the ground. I've always heard to take off your PFD and sit on it,
 > though...not sure why (or if) a kayak wouldn't work. Bad places to
 > be are underneath the tallest tree (flagpole, whatever) in the area,
 > on bare rock, in a shallow cave, in a gulley or ditch where
 > rainwater runs, or out in the open. Good places to be are under a
 > group of trees of approximately equal height, or in a deep cave.
 > Also, if you are in a party, you should spread out -- if someone
 > gets hit and you are close, the blast can injure others close by.

A kayak or a PFD will not provide any significant protection.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html" target="_blank">http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html</a> dismisses
a similar myth concerning protection in a car with the statement, "
RUBBER TIRES WILL INSULATE ME FROM LIGHTNING (it has traveled miles
through space…a few inches of rubber mean nothing at all.)"

One source for information about lightning is
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls.html" target="_blank">http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls.html</a>
--
Jim Esler<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking? 

Jim Esler wrote:

 > Mary Malmros wrote:
 >
  >>BROWN.ELLEN@COMCAST.NET writes:
  >>
  >>
   >>>Has anyone ever been caught in a lighting storm while Kayaking?
   >>>I was wondering if lighting could get you if you kind of slid into
   >>>your kayak and had it on top of you while out of the water. I'm just
   >>>looking for some tips what others do, seeing iv'e been pretty close to
   >>>being caught in a storm.
  >>
  >>Assuming you've made it to shore -- which is what the paragraph
  >>above sounds like -- you'd be better off on top of your kayak rather
  >>than with your kayak on top of you. You want to be insulated from
  >>the ground. I've always heard to take off your PFD and sit on it,
  >>though...not sure why (or if) a kayak wouldn't work. Bad places to
  >>be are underneath the tallest tree (flagpole, whatever) in the area,
  >>on bare rock, in a shallow cave, in a gulley or ditch where
  >>rainwater runs, or out in the open. Good places to be are under a
  >>group of trees of approximately equal height, or in a deep cave.
  >>Also, if you are in a party, you should spread out -- if someone
  >>gets hit and you are close, the blast can injure others close by.
 >
 >
 > A kayak or a PFD will not provide any significant protection.
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html" target="_blank">http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html</a> dismisses
 > a similar myth concerning protection in a car with the statement, "
 > RUBBER TIRES WILL INSULATE ME FROM LIGHTNING (it has traveled miles
 > through space…a few inches of rubber mean nothing at all.)"

No, of course a tire or PFD can't insulate from the lightning strike *once
it is initiated*, but that's not the proposed mechanism whereby such
insulators might be effective.

Before a lightning strike occurs you have a thunderstorm cloudbase which is
negatively charged relative to the ground. That negative charge tends to
repel electrons in any surface objects underneath it with the result that
there's a net flow of electrons into the earth and objects on the surface
develop a net positive charge. That's the cause of the feeling felt by
some who get dangerously close to a thunderstorm that their hair is
standing on end - their hairs are all positively charged and therefore
repel each other and stick out and up from their head. The negative
charges on the bottom of the cloud are attracted to the positive charges on
surface objects below and a lightning strike is eventually initiated when
the charges build up to the point where an initial 'stepped leader' can
ionize the air and provide a conducting path between the cloud base and the
ground. This immediately leads to the main lightning strike along the
ionized air path.

Insulating material between you and earth won't stop the actual lightning
strike, but it could help to keep you from becoming quite so positively
charged in the moments leading up to the strike. It won't provide absolute
protection, but it may make some other object a more attractive target for
the strike than you are. You'll also want to position yourself far enough
away from such 'attractive targets' that you won't be injured if they are
struck.
Unfortunately a salt-water soaked PFD won't be a good insulator, so I'd
still opt for the standard advice to seek shelter if at all possible and
otherwise to crouch in a low-lying area away from trees and other
lightning-attractors.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking? 

"Peter" <prathman.DeleteThis@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:ZxlVa.3010$Ho3.1037@sccrnsc03...
 > Jim Esler wrote:
 >
  > > Mary Malmros wrote:
  > >
   > >>BROWN.ELLEN@COMCAST.NET writes:
   > >>
   > >>
   > >>>Has anyone ever been caught in a lighting storm while Kayaking?

 > Unfortunately a salt-water soaked PFD won't be a good insulator, so I'd
 > still opt for the standard advice to seek shelter if at all possible and
 > otherwise to crouch in a low-lying area away from trees and other
 > lightning-attractors.
 >

If you are far from shore and cannot make it to shelter, the best thing to
do is to get the group all rafted together for additional stability. Stow
your paddles and undo your spray skirts. Hunker down as low as you can in
your cockpit with your head firmly between your legs. Now kiss your ass
goodbye.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking? 

On 28-Jul-2003, "David J. Van den Branden" <dave DeleteThis @brickgarage.com> wrote:

 > If you are far from shore and cannot make it to shelter, the best thing to
 > do is to get the group all rafted together for additional stability. Stow
 > your paddles and undo your spray skirts. Hunker down as low as you can in
 > your cockpit with your head firmly between your legs. Now kiss your ass
 > goodbye.

Alternatively, you can look at sailboats, with tall aluminum masts that are
grounded to the keel, and remember that they rarely get struck by lightning
even though they spend a great deal of the time on water (under sail or in
harbour). Since they are not at serious risk, neither are you in a kayak.

Don't take storms lightly, but don't get overly paranoid.

Mike<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking? 

Jim Esler <jeesler DeleteThis @earthlink.net> writes:

 > Mary Malmros wrote:
  > >
  > > BROWN.ELLEN DeleteThis @COMCAST.NET writes:
  > >
   > > > Has anyone ever been caught in a lighting storm while Kayaking?
   > > > I was wondering if lighting could get you if you kind of slid into
   > > > your kayak and had it on top of you while out of the water. I'm just
   > > > looking for some tips what others do, seeing iv'e been pretty close to
   > > > being caught in a storm.
  > >
  > > Assuming you've made it to shore -- which is what the paragraph
  > > above sounds like -- you'd be better off on top of your kayak rather
  > > than with your kayak on top of you. You want to be insulated from
  > > the ground. I've always heard to take off your PFD and sit on it,
  > > though...not sure why (or if) a kayak wouldn't work. Bad places to
  > > be are underneath the tallest tree (flagpole, whatever) in the area,
  > > on bare rock, in a shallow cave, in a gulley or ditch where
  > > rainwater runs, or out in the open. Good places to be are under a
  > > group of trees of approximately equal height, or in a deep cave.
  > > Also, if you are in a party, you should spread out -- if someone
  > > gets hit and you are close, the blast can injure others close by.
 >
 > A kayak or a PFD will not provide any significant protection.
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html" target="_blank">http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html</a> dismisses
 > a similar myth concerning protection in a car with the statement, "
 > RUBBER TIRES WILL INSULATE ME FROM LIGHTNING (it has traveled miles
 > through space…a few inches of rubber mean nothing at all.)"

Er...re the car, see the skin effect. It does work.

--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros malmros DeleteThis @shore.net
   Some days you're the windshield,
   Other days you're the bug.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking? 

Michael V. Huck's, Jr. wrote "Lightning and Boats" © 1995 Seaworthy Books
ISBN 0-9639666-0-4. See also Martin Uman's "Lightning" 1984 2nd. Ed. Dover
Pubtns. Uman did a lot of his work at U. of FL. and the Sea Grant Extension
Pgm there may still have copies of the " Boating-Lightning Protection"
pamphlet.
Aside from these sources remember that lightining like all electricity seeks
the path of least resisitance and you do not want to be a link in that path
either for up or down leaders.

--
To REPLY-- Do NOT click REPLY. Please click the following email address >>
qajaqer99.DeleteThis@hotmail.com & =--v--= .
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking? 

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 04:52:20 GMT, "Michael Daly"
<michaeldaly.RemoveThis@rogers.notthis.com> wrote:

 >On 28-Jul-2003, "David J. Van den Branden" <dave.RemoveThis@brickgarage.com> wrote:
 >
  >> If you are far from shore and cannot make it to shelter, the best thing to
  >> do is to get the group all rafted together for additional stability. Stow
  >> your paddles and undo your spray skirts. Hunker down as low as you can in
  >> your cockpit with your head firmly between your legs. Now kiss your ass
  >> goodbye.
 >
 >Alternatively, you can look at sailboats, with tall aluminum masts that are
 >grounded to the keel, and remember that they rarely get struck by lightning
 >even though they spend a great deal of the time on water (under sail or in
 >harbour). Since they are not at serious risk, neither are you in a kayak.

I lived for sometime on a 35 ft sailboat (too large to haul out of the
water frequently) in North Carolina (where thunderstorms occur on a daily
basis in the summer) that had an aluminum mast that was not bonded or
grounded in any way to the keel. (As a matter of fact, the mast only went
to the coachroof, it was not stepped through to the keel.) I had my VHF
radio antenna on top of that. I know I was struck by lightning several
times, with sometimes some damage to the antenna but never to the boat
itself. There were oodles of theories about lightning and masts at the
time, I'll bet they still exist.

Nowadays I live in Florida, where we get more lightning than any other
state. There are several research stations and university departments and
doctors involved in the study of lightning. Long story short, they tend to
disagree about even the fundamentals. Lightning involves extremely high
voltages, amperages, temperatures, etc. and no one really knows what to
make of it all.

There are oodles of theories about what to do during a thunderstorm. They
range from fairly common sense stuff (don't stand under a lone tree on a
hill) to the rather hard to do "anticipatory hop," where you jump into the
air right before a lightning strike.

While I'm certainly not going to disparage any safety advice (I know if I
did someone would go out and get fried *just that way* the weekend after),
I will say that aside from the general stuff I just don't think an
individual can modify (either by stance or use of equipment) a lightning
strike. I'm sure that there are folks that swear standing on a PFD has
worked for them. Praying real hard to Thor has always worked for me.

 >Don't take storms lightly, but don't get overly paranoid.

Good advice.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA ghekhuis.RemoveThis@earthlink.net
A penny saved gathers no moss<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking? 

"Jim Esler" <jeesler.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3F25CF93.E4B45CCA@earthlink.net...
 > A kayak or a PFD will not provide any significant protection.
 > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html" target="_blank">http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html</a> dismisses
 > a similar myth concerning protection in a car with the statement, "
 > RUBBER TIRES WILL INSULATE ME FROM LIGHTNING (it has traveled miles
 > through space.a few inches of rubber mean nothing at all.)"
 >
 > One source for information about lightning is
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls.html</font</a>>
 > --
 > Jim Esler

I know we all grew up believing it was the rubber tires that protect us from
lightning in a car, but it turns out it's probably the steel frame. In my 30
years as a pilot I have been struck at least 3 times with minimal damage to
the airplane it seems that the metal frame and skin of the aircraft along
with static wicks designed to disperse the strike do a pretty good job. One
of the problems with the new composite (no metal) airframes has been
adequate lightning protection my guess is this would apply to a kayak.

Ron Donahue<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking? 

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:12:20 GMT, "Ronald Donahue"
<ronahue DeleteThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote:

 >
 >"Jim Esler" <jeesler DeleteThis @earthlink.net> wrote in message
 >news:3F25CF93.E4B45CCA@earthlink.net...
  >> A kayak or a PFD will not provide any significant protection.
  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html" target="_blank">http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html</a> dismisses
  >> a similar myth concerning protection in a car with the statement, "
  >> RUBBER TIRES WILL INSULATE ME FROM LIGHTNING (it has traveled miles
  >> through space.a few inches of rubber mean nothing at all.)"
  >>
  >> One source for information about lightning is
<font color=green>  >> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls.html</font" target="_blank">http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls.html</font</a>>
  >> --
  >> Jim Esler
 >
 >I know we all grew up believing it was the rubber tires that protect us from
 >lightning in a car, but it turns out it's probably the steel frame. In my 30
 >years as a pilot I have been struck at least 3 times with minimal damage to
 >the airplane it seems that the metal frame and skin of the aircraft along
 >with static wicks designed to disperse the strike do a pretty good job. One
 >of the problems with the new composite (no metal) airframes has been
 >adequate lightning protection my guess is this would apply to a kayak.
 >
 >Ron Donahue
 >
Ron struck the nail on the head - metal skinned airplanes and
automobiles act as a Faraday shield which helps (helps, but not a 100%
guarantee unless you are 100% surrounded by a conductor) to protect
you if hit by lightning. Actually, most car tires are not insulators,
but, are slightly conductive due to the carbon content in the rubber.
This helps to drain the static from the car body. I wish shoe
manufacturers would do the same for shoe soles.

Standing on a PFD or other insulator is meant to protect you from the
current flowing in the earth during a nearby lightning strike. If you
can't stand on an insulator, then keep your feet close together to
reduce the electric potential between your right and left feet. This
sort of danger is present in water if lightning strikes the water,
thus, best not to be swimming during a lightning storm.

Trees are a danger due to the bark exploding off the trunk when hit by
lightning (superheats the moisture under the bark instantly). Not to
mention falling branches, or something my parents narrowly missed
while camping on their honeymoon, the whole tree falling down.
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wvlightning.com/trees.html" target="_blank">http://wvlightning.com/trees.html</a>

An aside, if you hike any of the peaks in the Cascade range in Oregon,
look for the melted holes in the granite caused by lightning strikes.
Very impressive. Sure wouldn't want to be up there during a storm!

Mark<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking? 

Mary Malmros wrote:
 >
 > Jim Esler <jeesler.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> writes:
 >
  > > Mary Malmros wrote:
   > > >
   > > > BROWN.ELLEN.DeleteThis@COMCAST.NET writes:
   > > >
   > > > > Has anyone ever been caught in a lighting storm while Kayaking?
   > > > > I was wondering if lighting could get you if you kind of slid into
   > > > > your kayak and had it on top of you while out of the water. I'm just
   > > > > looking for some tips what others do, seeing iv'e been pretty close to
   > > > > being caught in a storm.
   > > >
   > > > Assuming you've made it to shore -- which is what the paragraph
   > > > above sounds like -- you'd be better off on top of your kayak rather
   > > > than with your kayak on top of you. You want to be insulated from
   > > > the ground. I've always heard to take off your PFD and sit on it,
   > > > though...not sure why (or if) a kayak wouldn't work. Bad places to
   > > > be are underneath the tallest tree (flagpole, whatever) in the area,
   > > > on bare rock, in a shallow cave, in a gulley or ditch where
   > > > rainwater runs, or out in the open. Good places to be are under a
   > > > group of trees of approximately equal height, or in a deep cave.
   > > > Also, if you are in a party, you should spread out -- if someone
   > > > gets hit and you are close, the blast can injure others close by.
  > >
  > > A kayak or a PFD will not provide any significant protection.
  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html" target="_blank">http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/letter_to_editor.html</a> dismisses
  > > a similar myth concerning protection in a car with the statement, "
  > > RUBBER TIRES WILL INSULATE ME FROM LIGHTNING (it has traveled miles
  > > through space…a few inches of rubber mean nothing at all.)"
 >
 > Er...re the car, see the skin effect. It does work.

It works as long as you are not touching any metal surfaces. If you are,
some stray part of the bolt could wander through you. But this is not
relevant to a kayaker unless they are totally enclosed by a metal shell,
which would not be the case if they are sitting on a PFD or a kayak.
--
Jim Esler<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking? 

Lee Travino, the golfer, has been struck by lightning twice. According to a
story I read a couple of years back, when a storm reached the course while
he was preparing to swing, he went back to his bag, grabbed a club, and
stood on the grass holding the iron into the air. One of the other golfers
exhorted him to run for cover, but Lee replied,

"Hell, not even god can hit a 1 iron."

Perhaps these should be standard kayaking equipment.

Rick


"Michael Daly" <michaeldaly RemoveThis @rogers.notthis.com> wrote in message
news:84nVa.110926$zwL.16408@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
 > On 28-Jul-2003, "David J. Van den Branden" <dave RemoveThis @brickgarage.com> wrote:
 >
  > > If you are far from shore and cannot make it to shelter, the best thing
to
  > > do is to get the group all rafted together for additional stability.
Stow
  > > your paddles and undo your spray skirts. Hunker down as low as you can
in
  > > your cockpit with your head firmly between your legs. Now kiss your ass
  > > goodbye.
 >
 > Alternatively, you can look at sailboats, with tall aluminum masts that
are
 > grounded to the keel, and remember that they rarely get struck by
lightning
 > even though they spend a great deal of the time on water (under sail or in
 > harbour). Since they are not at serious risk, neither are you in a kayak.
 >
 > Don't take storms lightly, but don't get overly paranoid.
 >
 > Mike
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: What to do in a lighting storm while Kayaking?